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Unread March 22nd, 2009, 02:45 PM   #1
Aeneas
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Sad Why Are Women So Bitchy?

Dear Forum,

I am struggling to understand this phenomenon, and I really wish there was a solution to it. Perhaps - and I grant you that this is a possibility - that I am surrounded by bitchy women, or perhaps the inherent bitchiness I talk of is a dominant characteristic of women in general. Regardless, I am exhausted by the bitchiness of women to other women: it is deeply unattractive and very unsettling. I just wish there was a way of restoring calm and order: a way to disincline the women I know from being so bitchy. Much of this bitchiness is not voiced in the open - it is behind closed doors and whispered ever so quietly. Some of it is conducted in a somewhat more vigorous and obnoxious manner. Instead of coming together and forming lasting friendships, most of the women I know are two-faced to one another; inevitably this creates vast differences in the future. Perhaps this is why men tend to form and to maintain more enduring friendships over time? Is this condition one reason as to why feminism has now been divided along class-lines - because class is an issue that separates women from each other, thus giving another reason to bitch? More scientifically, what evolutionary function does bitchiness provide? Surely it merely increases tensions between people? Many of the male friends I have have experienced the same feelings - a feeling of helplessness at the sometimes unrestrained cruelty that the bitchiness of women implicitly demands. Men are by no means virtuous by comparison - certainly not - but, from my knowledge, they tend to discuss their differences out loud or to solve them in a rather more physical manner. In essence: there is very little facade in the steps taken by men to resolve their differences. Interestingly, the bitchiness of which I speak seems to recede as women age - presumably as they are no longer in competition with one another (it is, moreover, my contention that they are infinitely more competitive than men in this postmodern age). Finally, I care for women very much. I live in a family surrounded by women who have cared for me a great deal. But within this environment and outside of it, I notice a strong (almost genetical) predisposition to bitchiness. This, as many men will attest, is a disposition that reaches beyond the confines of the home. I'd love to hear what people have to say on this topic. Hopefully we will be able to cultivate some sort of mature debate on the issue.

Cheers,
Aeneas.
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Unread March 22nd, 2009, 04:58 PM   #2
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

There are many pressures in society placed upon women that are different from the pressures placed upon men.

Therefore some of the "bitchiness" may come from these pressures, some of which are unreasonable so they cause unreasonable competition among women. This is what may seem petty, but in reality much of what gets people ahead in this narcissistic society are many petty ideals that we uphold. So woman act irrational or bitchy because they are trying to maintain their personal status in the society that holds to superficial/petty idolizing.

Just a part of life in this ever changing imperfect world.

I think part of feminism is trying to relize this. Although I dont know much about the movement I think they also have changed many of their standards as some of what they pushed for in the past is now thought to have been the wrong direction and some of what they have done they are still trying to maintain.

All we have to learn from is trial and error.

This too shall pass... maybe not in our life time... but maybe so.
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Unread March 22nd, 2009, 04:59 PM   #3
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

The cattiness you speak of is a trait as women are sometimes more "civilized" and prefer to tear others down with words rather than fists.

However, to say that it is a dominant trait of women is to lump all together. As a rule, the younger a woman is, the more likely she is to behave in the gossip, cat-fighting nature. Pre-teens and teens are the most vicious. From my group of friends (late 20s - mid 30s), there aren't any catty moments or back biting but genuine concern.

Also, to claim that men form and maintain enduring friendships while women are somewhat incapable is almost laughable. The majority of people I know of BOTH genders maintain friendships or not based on their own personal issues. Ex. I still hang out with some people from my high school days and speak with them constantly. My husband, however, had not spoken to even his "best guy friend" from high school in about 4 years when we attended his high school reunion. It is more a personal preference and whether or not that person was a genuine friend. In high school, both genders have fairly superficial friends...some morph and deepen into genuine friendships. With many guys, those friends may be from high school. With many girls, our major relationships are formed/solidified during college days as we become less caught up in high school drama.

In short, we aren't all the same. Men aren't all pigs. You'll probably go a lot farther by remembering that everyone has faults, yourself included. So, perhaps all don't deserve the same title or classification.
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Unread March 22nd, 2009, 07:32 PM   #4
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

It's ahrd to maintain a mature debate when you boil women down to one characteristic and expect us to defend ourselves, regardless of the fact that we do not all exhibit said characteristic.

That said, read "Queen Bees and Wannabes," I hear that explains why younger females tend to be so dramatic. Other than that, I have nothing else to say.
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Unread March 22nd, 2009, 07:51 PM   #5
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

I think every woman has a bitch in her, and every guy has a pig in him. What it is that makes me like or dislike a person is how they handle this.

Women will throw tantrums and do cruel things, but they can easily apologize, learn from it, etc. However, many women, for some odd reason, always have to be right, so instead of apologizing, they continue to be bitchy and hold an illogical position in whatever argument may arise, and thus they let the bitchiness become a part of them.

The best women I know are bitchy from time to time, and will apologize and keep it under control. Similarly, as a man, I have needs and at times find myself getting horny because of the women around me, but the fact that I keep that under control instead of getting into fights, making inappropriate comments with regards to women, and even committing rape, is what keeps me from being considered a pig (although I totally am a pervert, every man is).

Here's an example of this phenomenon: On MTV, there was (possibly is still) a reality TV show (I forget the name) where a guy will choose which girl he will date out of three of them without meeting them face-to-face, but instead inspecting each girl's bedroom. The opposite also happened in the show, a woman inspecting the rooms of three guys. While the person inspecting is doing so, the three contestants watch what's going on together through a camera.

When the men were together watching a woman go through their stuff, they were laughing and becoming friends. When the women were watching a guy go through their stuff, they'd make aggressive comments about who will get the guy, insult each other, even almost become violent, and just be nasty to each other.
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Unread March 22nd, 2009, 08:25 PM   #6
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

I believe the show was Room Raiders or some shite like that. Those shows are not accurate depictions of women- they attract a certain type of woman and place them in groups of women who are likely to create the most volatile situations, what's more, the actual setting is a Dutch oven for ridiculous behavior. That said, it does illustrate a certain side of certain women, but it also does the same thing for certain kinds of men. If we are going to use MTV examples why not discuss Tool Acadamy or Ex-Factor (if that is the name) or Real World- the majority of the men exhibit startling displays of douche-baggery, chauvanism, and shallowness. Basically, those shows are never accurate portrayals of any gender, race, or ethnicity.
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Unread March 22nd, 2009, 09:08 PM   #7
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

When trying to understand a phenomenon, generalize only when absolutely necessary. First ask yourself what behaviours of the women around you bother you, and then try and determine the various causes of their behaviour. After you're finished, then you can attempt to qualify your observations into something testable for differentiation across the sexes.

Otherwise, you'll elicit responses that may be interesting but probably won't help you with your quest in the way you need.
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Unread March 22nd, 2009, 10:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

This is such a fucked up retarded question the OP has.

By the way did anyone watch 60 minutes?
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Unread March 22nd, 2009, 10:23 PM   #9
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

BabyDiva is quite right.
Bitchiness is a way to let off steam, so much as attacking Iraq
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Unread March 22nd, 2009, 11:33 PM   #10
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

Much of the replies have been informative up to a point. Some of them have made the point that I am branding all womankind with the same brush. I am sorry if that is the impression I have given. I, of course, do not believe that ALL women are bitchy. I simply note that the tendency toward bitchiness is more prevalent among females than it is among men: this may be to do with female articulacy, fluency (to the point of superfluity) in communication etc., which naturally puts men at a slight disadvantage. By all means, womankind is diverse and resplendid in a great many ways, as is mankind. So, I do apologize if my comments appeared pejorative or vexing to anyone.

As I said before, I merely want to understand the phenomnenon of bitchiness, what it achieves - if anything at all - and by what means it can be contained. Some of the responses pointed to the conclusion that the female tendency to bitchiness is purely generational, or that it is specific to a particularly immature state of mind. Others have noted that it may be a byproduct of an ever-changing and ever more stressful world (under this particular scenario, bitchiness is used to "blow off steam," to project what cannot be voiced in public). Still others have come to the conclusion that bitchiness is not gender specific and that it applies to men also.

I do not feel that it is remotely possible to reach a verdict on an issue such as this. But let me attempt to reply to some of the replies. Dream notes that extrinsic pressures lead women act in the manner described: bitchiness, therefore, is an affect of modern life. Nothing more. This, naturally, would allow one to reach the conclusion that women were not remotely bitchy in the past. Thus, what one perceives as bitchiness - a negative quality in another person - is actually accorded through no fault of their own, but through the stresses of the world. My own view is that this is a somewhat reductive analysis. It also seems to point to the rather bleak conclusion that such behavior cannot be reigned in, held in check, modulated, brought under some sort of reasonable control. I do not take such a stoical view. I'd like to think that people are capable of change. Just as men might learn to check their violent tendencies or restrain their sexual impulses, so one can prevent - if one is conscious at all - the need to bitch.

I'd like to consider the claim put forth by Babydiva that women's relationships with each other are just as enduring as male relationships. She notes the following: "to claim that men form and maintain enduring friendships while women are somewhat incapable is almost laughable. The majority of people I know of BOTH genders maintain friendships or not based on their own personal issues." Inevitably personal issues are involved in the formation and upkeep of friendships. According to Aristotle, our relationships with those considered as friends are broken into three categories: 1) those that serve a pragmatic purpose, 2) those that are good, and 3) those that are pleasant. Personal convergence is, at some level, entirely expected. Let me take issue with the notion that women do form enduring relationships. In this politically correct world it would be wise to admit this is true. Certainly, I am able to take stock of some very long lived female relationships. And this is heartening indeed. However, to my knowledge, women prefer talking to men than women. Very often they prefer to rely on the opposite sex precisely because they are not as prone to bitchiness and two-facedness. (Incidentally, it is the latter quality which, in my opinion, prevents many young women from forming lasting and meaningful friendships.) Most men who dare to step out of their politically correct shells would agree with this analysis. Ergo, I do not mean that women CANNOT and DO NOT form such relationships. They can and do. But those that are able to do so are very much in the minority - from what I can tell. Another point raised by Babydiva is that women are "more civilized" precisely because they engage in bitchiness as opposed to the graufness and violence sometimes attributable to the male temperament. Of course, if she read my analysis she would see that I did not say that men solely resort to violence when seeking closure on an issue. I am more than away that many do not even reach the closure stage. But I still maintain that men tend to be more "out in the open" with one another and to clarify things face to face without resorting to bitchiness of any sort. And this is one such reason as to why men find it easier to trust one another in many situations - hence the formation of brotherhoods, armies, construction teams, hierarchies, closed societies. Furthermore, bitchiness, though slightly more "civilized" than the raising of one's fist to resolve an issue, is still incredibly underhanded and entirely dishonorable. There are no points to be garnered from such behavior. And in a rather "bitchy", piqued or catty manner she ends her message thus: "In short, we aren't all the same. Men aren't all pigs. You'll probably go a lot farther by remembering that everyone has faults, yourself included." I am more than aware of this. Indeed, I am willing to entirely lay my faults right out in the open. I often do so with my friends. We do not weigh each other up. We do not form rivalries over the way we look or over the successes we have lost or won. And so we grow together and mature together. And this solidarity is tentatively shared with my female friends. I love them dearly and I care so much that I wonder why they resort to such hurtful and self-destructive behavior.

Finally I come to Automorphism. His comment seems refreshingly logical and considered. I'd like to extend this commendation to Dream also. Automorphism states thus: "When trying to understand a phenomenon, generalize only when absolutely necessary. First ask yourself what behaviours of the women around you bother you, and then try and determine the various causes of their behaviour. After you're finished, then you can attempt to qualify your observations into something testable for differentiation across the sexes." I agree that in the apperception and inductive analysis of a problem one must collect the experiences one has, then listen to the experiences of others (which I have), and then, through the measuring of equivalences, seek to reach a conclusion. Universal attributions, however, are not impossible. It is a fact that men and women are indeed different, different parts of the same whole. And so perceiving this, it is fruitful to concentrate on what those differences really are. I do not think that one can state such arbitrary things like men are clever than women (or vice versa), or that men tend to be more dominant than women (or vice versa), but if the right tools are at my disposal, if I attempt to collect evidence over a series of years and cross analyze this evidence with other sources, with rational and counterintuitive logicality, I may just reach a fuzzy conclusion. Even if we cannot inductively reach the Universal, even if we struggle for years with unlinking atomic facts and particularities, we can posit and test, posit and test. And that is precisely what I am doing. This is why it is immature of those to conclude that my arguments are outrightly misguided or unintelligible or even unfashionable. My goal is merely to understand human behavior better. Nothing more.

Wearsome backs up Babydiva by noting what I have sought to refute above: that bitchiness is just a way to let off steam. I admit that there is some truth in this statement. But what, in the long-term, does it solve. Wouldn't it be better to just bite our tongues or to confront people out in the open about things? The flawed logic of Wearsome's conclusion is apparent when she notes, not without a little spite, that the alternative to bitchiness is war: "so much as attacking Iraq." This is not the case. Indeed, it is a positively hyperbolic conclusion. Instead of bitching indiscriminately, instead of regarding it as an inherent characteristic that cannot be changed, we could take steps to solve our grievances. To my knowledge, bitchiness - which is a form of two-facedness - helps to instill paranoia in others: the "is she talking about me" syndrome. This is by no means healthy - very often it leads to blatant verbal and sometimes physical abuse. Put simply: it is a cause of conflict, not a means to the resolving of a situation.

Cheers,
Aeneas.

Last edited by Aeneas; March 22nd, 2009 at 11:45 PM..
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Unread March 23rd, 2009, 05:34 AM   #11
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

Whoa. Why are you writing every post like it's an argumentative essay?

You know, we're pretty relaxed here. You can talk to us like a normal human being if you like.
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Unread March 23rd, 2009, 05:48 AM   #12
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonangel View Post
You know, we're pretty relaxed here. You can talk to us like a normal human being if you like.
Ssshhh...

Don't listen to her. She's just being bitchy. Of course you should write us argumentative essays; we are goddesses after all. Next, dear Aeneas, how about some epic poetry? A tale of Troy, perhaps?
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Unread March 23rd, 2009, 05:56 AM   #13
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonangel View Post
whoa. Why are you writing every post like it's an argumentative essay?

You know, we're pretty relaxed here. You can talk to us like a normal human being if you like.
fuck you!
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Unread March 23rd, 2009, 06:04 AM   #14
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

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fuck you!
LOL ... oh right, and it's the 'women' who are bitchy ...
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Unread March 23rd, 2009, 06:29 AM   #15
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

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fuck you!
LOL for comedic relief
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Unread March 23rd, 2009, 09:08 AM   #16
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

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I believe the show was Room Raiders or some shite like that. Those shows are not accurate depictions of women- they attract a certain type of woman and place them in groups of women who are likely to create the most volatile situations, what's more, the actual setting is a Dutch oven for ridiculous behavior. That said, it does illustrate a certain side of certain women, but it also does the same thing for certain kinds of men. If we are going to use MTV examples why not discuss Tool Acadamy or Ex-Factor (if that is the name) or Real World- the majority of the men exhibit startling displays of douche-baggery, chauvanism, and shallowness. Basically, those shows are never accurate portrayals of any gender, race, or ethnicity.
Excellent point.

What I'm noticing about this thread is that we can't even talk about bitchiness out in the open without women who don't consider themselves bitchy... Well, bitching! I'm not really sure why this is, I mean I wouldn't even flinch if somebody wanted to talk about men being pigs. Hell, I'm sure most men are pigs!

And what's wrong with Aeneas writing in argumentative essay form? If that's what he wants to do, then what's the problem? The complaints here are confusing and I don't understand why people can't have a healthy discussion about such "taboo" subjects without painting someone as making sweeping generalizations or being a sexist of some kind.
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Unread March 23rd, 2009, 10:58 AM   #17
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post
I do not feel that it is remotely possible to reach a verdict on an issue such as this. But let me attempt to reply to some of the replies. Dream notes that extrinsic pressures lead women act in the manner described: bitchiness, therefore, is an affect of modern life. Nothing more. This, naturally, would allow one to reach the conclusion that women were not remotely bitchy in the past. Thus, what one perceives as bitchiness - a negative quality in another person - is actually accorded through no fault of their own, but through the stresses of the world. My own view is that this is a somewhat reductive analysis. It also seems to point to the rather bleak conclusion that such behavior cannot be reigned in, held in check, modulated, brought under some sort of reasonable control. I do not take such a stoical view. I'd like to think that people are capable of change. Just as men might learn to check their violent tendencies or restrain their sexual impulses, so one can prevent - if one is conscious at all - the need to bitch.
I think you misunderstood me a bit, but thanks for commending me anyway.


I did not say that the pressures are modern. In actuality many of the pressures in society are as old as the world is. Im saying these are residual pressures. This world has been flawed from the begining and we are only work in progress hopefully on track to making it better and not worse. You should be able to acknowlege that if you are willing to quote Aristotle who is one of the oldest greek philosiphers and who made some signifigant influences on the world... BUT... not to mention that in the time he lived it was acceptable for men to have sex with boys in order to save themselves for one wife. (Just another example of how the world has changed for the better in these modern times.)

You can see that I did post that the world was ever changing? I dont understand where you got a bleak conclusion from that as you posted "I'd like to think that people are capable of change."

Also I did not say that all of this behavior is caused by pressures in society but only some. Im sure there is some genetic predisposition for women to be more one way then men are. We can only hope to change what we are capable of. So yes, some of my opinions may sound bleak in a way but I think as a whole we will never reach perfection. Hopfully we can cover much ground though. As far as one maintaining self control is another issue as we are talking about women as a group here.

Last edited by dream; March 23rd, 2009 at 11:46 AM..
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Unread March 23rd, 2009, 01:11 PM   #18
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

To continue on what Dream said, until very recently in relation to the rest of the time humanity has existed, women couldn't really bitch because they had little to no rights, not to mention would be rejected and even beaten.

Today, these barriers are much less present, so women can be as bitchy as they'd like.
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Unread March 23rd, 2009, 03:05 PM   #19
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

For me it is the connotation of the word "bitchy." It gets applied to us so often and under a variety of degrading circumstances that it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Yes, I do agree that women can have a rather distasteful side that some men have a hard time understanding but the fact that it is seen as a problem also irks me a bit. The behaviors that some women show are often perplexing to men, but men have many similar traits that people just explain away with "Well boys will be boys." Why do men get the benefit of the doubt? I can easily say that men have a tendency towards irresponsibility, a lack of foresight, and an inherent need to always be right and no one questions it. Why do we have to question women for talking behind each other's backs and for complaining about things they don't like? Why can't it simply be, "girls will be girls?"

I suppose I feel like a lot of this comes from constant surveillance of women's behavior, which extends from how they perform as a mother, a lover, or a friend to their interactions in the work place, sports, and public sphere. Women are constantly scrutinized for everything we do and everything always has to be explained or questioned. This thread is another example of this scrutiny.

The last reason I have for disliking this thread is because it takes this abrasive term, throws it open to public debate, and does it in such a way that anyone who even speaks out about it is being a bitch. Because I disagree with the application of this term I am suddenly a bitch? Where is the fairness in that? If you want to go along that vein then this thread is simply an expression of a man's constant need to be right. That stings, doesn't it? But if you argue it, then you are just clearly demonstrating that exact quality.

And if you want my opinion about why women have a tendency to be bitchy, it's because that is the only way we are allowed to show aggression. Men can fight and talk big but it is far less acceptable for women to do that; furthermore, woman seem to have a tradition of being the mediators and social fronts for families, in order to maintain peace and order we develop far less overt ways of expressing our aggression- doesn't mean it is right, just might be a reason why we do it. Perhaps also we think differently from men and that is just how we deal with problems, and perhaps this tendency has been magnified by television, movies, and music, which has made it more "popular" so to speak.
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Unread March 23rd, 2009, 05:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: Why Are Women So Bitchy?

Let's replace the word "bitchy" with "catty" from the question, so that the connotations are more relevant.

Ok, so I'd be lying if I said I don't know what the OP is talking about. It's too bad this thread is taken as abrasive, though I guess with that title, it kind of sets the wrong mood right from the start. I also have a suspicion that OP is actually writing a paper or something.

Ultimately, I think it's as simple as this:

1) We all experience the human condition

2) Men and women are different. For example, women are a lot better at compartmentalizing than men are. This is why you pretty much never hear about a chick that gets put into the "friend zone" by some dude. In any case, this means that the way we deal with the trials of the human condition differ.

So, the general advice, when it comes to dealing with this stuff, is:

1) Try to understand what the other is going through. Not just from a cold, logical, evolutionary standpoint, but from a "feelings" standpoint. It doesn't really matter what the evolutionary implications are. It DOES matter what people go through today as a result. So show some understanding and compassion for the human condition.

2) Set some hard boundaries that you will stick to. It's good to understand what people go through, but ultimately, there are some things you just plain shouldn't put up with. Not putting up with it is more important than pleasing the other person, because we're talking about speaking your truth. For example, that whole "I'm angry, but instead of saying why, I'm gonna stay silent and pout" bullshit doesn't fly with me, and no amount of wanting to get into someone's pants will change that.
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