Scary (new florida law encourages savagery hehe)

[Kuky]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050929/ts_alt_afp/afplifestyleflorida_050929191421;_ylt=AtPcBezU14le hYrNHI2c6hMmWccF;_ylu=X3oDMTA5bGVna3NhBHNlYwNzc3Jl bA--

And the petition that goes with it, of course: http://shootfirstlaw.org/

Hotchie Motchie!!

Supporters call it the "Stand Your Ground" law, while opponents call it the "Shoot First" law.

What's YOUR stance? Begin discussion, puny mortals!

[ittakessome]

Hahaha. Back with this again?

I must say I’ve learned a lot about guns over the past year or so. And this law is very dimensional. Its not as clear cut as it sounds. And it helps a lot in the legal problems a person has after he shoots someone in self-defense. I don’t care to explain it to you guys b/c you guys don’t listen much anyways. If you want to know what it’s about then p/m me.


I will say this.
"Under the previous law gun owners had first to attempt to withdraw and avoid a confrontation, and were authorized to shoot the threatening individual inside their home or property."
Withdraw = there was a certain way you had to. for example- you had to run a certain distance. To prove that you were trying to get away. Or you had to be cornered. You can see where this presents a problem if you’re a woman trying to be raped. Or if you're unable to out run your attacker. This new law, its not really different it just presents an easier situation for the person defending themselves, the one being attacked doesn’t have to prove that he was trying to run away. Before you HAD to try to escape first. Obviously that doesn’t work out as well as it sounds. I cant out run a man. Or even another woman. In turn, before this new law, I would’ve shot and killed them. Then I would have gone to trial for murder and might have ended up in jail for a short time. Despite the fact that I was defending myself and that my attacker had every intent to rape me to death. Now if that same situation occurs, it would be easier for charges to get dropped.


Want more details? P/m me.


according to that site that is against it.....
old law:
"It is a well-established rule that in order to justify or excuse a homicide on the ground of self defense, the slayer must have employed all means in his power, consistent with his own safety, to avoid danger and avert the necessity of taking another's life in order to protect himself." AmJur Homicide, Section 161. A person threatened other than in his own home or place of business is not justified in taking the life of the assailant, if a safe avenue of retreat is open to him. AmJur Homicide, Section 163.

new law:
The new Florida Shoot First law eliminates the duty to retreat and allows a person not engaged in unlawful activity who is attacked in a public place to "stand his or her ground" and use deadly force if "he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another person or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony." Thus, even if the shooter could have safely avoided the threat by walking away or seeking refuge elsewhere, the Shoot First law permits him to shoot the assailant and gives him immunity from criminal prosecution and civil suit if he does so.


i'd like to single out...
!!!!if "he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another person or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."!!!!!
it is not about just shooting someone b/c of an arguement. its about if you are going to die if you dont kill this person. or if your wife is going to die. or if you are getting raped and cannot run away. or if you are a small woman and your attacker is 2 times as big as you.

[Kuky]

It's the "use deadly force" bit that disturbs me. If someone was mugging me with a knife, and I somehow managed to get the upper hand, I would be mighty pissed, but I certainly wouldn't use "deadly force", because I believe that's unwarranted. I'd break both his elbows and take out his kneecaps or something, but I wouldn't kill someone. I think, laws or no laws, that in a self-defense situation, doing what you must to avoid getting hurt goes without saying. But overdoing self-defense becomes assault at some point. Given that in self-defense, nobody would blame you for defending yourself, passing a law like this seems to just remind the public that by the way, murder is an option. It makes it easier to get away with using excessive force.

[Lone Wolf]

I think it's hard to be objective.

Is burglary a forcible felony?

'Cause if I shoot a guy who's climbing into my neighbours apartment and it's his daughter's b/f it's sorta bad.

It's good you don't have to run a certain distance if some scumbag tries to rape or kill you, but with all such laws I worry about the less thoughtful people, 'cause like Kuky said, it reminds people that murder is an option.

[Wolf]

Dumb people shouldn't have that right. That includes a great deal too many people for comfort.

[ittakessome]

It's the "use deadly force" bit that disturbs me. If someone was mugging me with a knife, and I somehow managed to get the upper hand, I would be mighty pissed, but I certainly wouldn't use "deadly force", because I believe that's unwarranted. I'd break both his elbows and take out his kneecaps or something, but I wouldn't kill someone. I think, laws or no laws, that in a self-defense situation, doing what you must to avoid getting hurt goes without saying. But overdoing self-defense becomes assault at some point. Given that in self-defense, nobody would blame you for defending yourself, passing a law like this seems to just remind the public that by the way, murder is an option. It makes it easier to get away with using excessive force.

But you see; if someone is mugging you, you’re life may not be in danger. When you begin to carry a gun you know what may escalate a situation (basically that means what signs show you that it isn’t going to be a simple “give me your wallet” but more of a “I’m going to slit your throat after you give me your wallet). Now I’m not talking about everyone that carries b/c there are dumb people out there, but the majority know what and what not to do. I’ve talked to people. What do they do? They act like pussys. B/c they know if they get confrontational then someone will die. (Exact words.) I know someone who carries. And he told me that if I ever see him act like a pussy its b/c of the fact that he has his gun and he knows what warrants and does not warrant death. A mugging of course depends. If someone just wants your wallet you give it to him or her. If someone runs up and starts clubbing you on the head and kicking you in the gut, his intention might be to beat you to death and then steal your shit. It’s not as simple as 'he was mugging me and I shot him'. B/c in that situation you would go to jail for sure.

And shooting someone who goes into your neighbor’s house? The people that I know who have guns wouldn’t get involved in their neighbors b.s. B/c then you’re looking for trouble. Those who I know that carry don’t go looking for trouble. They have it just incase they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not to go and be a hero and save the day. Of course you have the retards and that’s why there should be classes involved in getting a license to carry a concealed weapon. (Which there are in FL.)

Ok, and the last sentence "Given that in self-defense, nobody would blame you for defending yourself."
People who have shot and killed someone in self-defense used to go to jail. That is what this new law is preventing, basically. (Maybe i didnt make that clear.) Before, the people defending themselves had a likely chance of going to jail for a year or two. The man that i know that carries says that he is still prepared to go to jail for two years if he ever shoots someone in self-defense. That this law may help him get out of it, but it is still something he knows might happen, and he is ready to except that if the situation ever presents itself. b/c he would rather be in jail for two years than dead or permanently brain damaged as a result of a beating. So it is not like people are out shooting people not thinking of the consequences (well of course some are, but those people would be doing it regardless of laws.)


But I just woke up and don’t have my glasses on, so forgive me if that didn’t make any sense.

[Lone_Raider]

I heard about this last March, so let me put a hypothetical situation out there for you.

Say the person who owns the gun is a white guy, from a white community, who is afraid of minorities Black's, Cuban's, whoever, he's nervous around them coming from whitebread land like he does. That's not an uncommon scenario in the south, I know, I lived there.

Say this guy now has to take a trip to Miami for business, he brings his trusty desert eagle with him to ward off danger. At night he's walking down the street, he's a nervous wreck, all these Cuban's are milling around, he walks fast and looks at the ground. Then he see's a large, dark skinned Cuban man coming towards him, he begins to panic. The man stops in front of him and says in a heavy accent, excuse me, do you have a light and then reaches into his jacket to get his cigarettes and the white man terrified that he's reaching for a knife or gun, pulls out his desert eagle and shoots the other mans head off.

He felt threatened right? It was night time, he's scared of minorities, this guy was asking him questions on the street. There was a threat to him, in his mind, and that new Florida law just gave him the right to kill in that situation didn't it? He thought he was under threat, and there were no witnesses to the crime. The court asks him what happened, he tells them that the man was trying to take his wallet, trying to rob him, so he shot.

No one was there, so he gets of scot free having killed in innocent man asking for a light.

That's why your new law is crap ittakesome, because people in this country are afraid of fucking everyone and everything already, especially where you live. Now they have the right to shoot anyone, anytime they feel threated with danger? Everyone's conception of personal danger is different, this guy had a lower threshold then others, some are even more paranoid then he is. Best hope your CUban father doesn't scare any white people walking around Florida or he might end of the victim or "self defense."

[Kuky]

Evenif you carry a gun, some maniac coming at you with a large piece of wood with a nail sticking out of it would make it difficult to reach for, unless you have nerves of steel. And if you do have time to take a deadly shot, you also have time to take a non-deadly shot. If you just shoot in the general direction of the assailant, then you risk killing some unrelated innocent passerby, which is even worse. I don't know how it is in the states, but I believe that any decently run gun association would have some pretty strict requirements for handing out gun licenses. That is, some form of training (if you gotta go to class for a driver's license, please tell me it's the same thing for a gun license). In THAT case, those who carry the guns would be able to shoot to wound. And in the event where such training is NOT required by the NRA, and any cross-eyed dipshit can have a gun, then the 'shoot first law' should be the least of our concern.

[Lone_Raider]

Evenif you carry a gun, some maniac coming at you with a large piece of wood with a nail sticking out of it would make it difficult to reach for, unless you have nerves of steel. And if you do have time to take a deadly shot, you also have time to take a non-deadly shot. If you just shoot in the general direction of the assailant, then you risk killing some unrelated innocent passerby, which is even worse. I don't know how it is in the states, but I believe that any decently run gun association would have some pretty strict requirements for handing out gun licenses. That is, some form of training (if you gotta go to class for a driver's license, please tell me it's the same thing for a gun license). In THAT case, those who carry the guns would be able to shoot to wound. And in the event where such training is NOT required by the NRA, and any cross-eyed dipshit can have a gun, then the 'shoot first law' should be the least of our concern.


There is no required training in the USA, any moron who wants a gun and passes a 1 day FBI check can get one. Even if they have never fired or held a gun in their entire life.

[ittakessome]

lol at Lone_Raider’s scenario.
….and desert eagle? O_o


The situation you presented in your scenario shows that you do know little about self-defense or its laws. Why? B/c the situation you presented is nonsense. Without brining in factors of racism, which will surely be present, whether against the white guy or the Cubans, the guy would be going to jail.

Neither the law nor I insinuated that just b/c you feel threatened, you can kill. Where did you get that? That is the twist opponents are giving it.

There was a threat to him, in his mind, and that new Florida law just gave him the right to kill in that situation didn't it?
No it most certainly did not. In that situation, he would be in jail.


And in the end you said no one was there. Well 1-that rarely happens on a street in Miami, thanks I live down here. 2- I already clarified the difference between robbing someone for their wallet and being in danger of your life. its not the same thing. just b/c someone robs you doesn’t mean you kill them. Did you not read the entire thread?

(Lol @ desert eagle.)

And yes, in FL, there is a class you have to attend. Hi, I live here and know personally know people who have a concealed weapons permit. You don't need classes to buy a gun, you do need it to be able to legally carry. You have to be 21 to buy a handgun and it is most certianly not a 1 day background check. I know that ::saidperson:: waited 2-3 weeks. Then again, criminals dont care abuot that b.s and laws. They will carry either way. Right?

And kuky, if you are far enough away from a man that you will miss him a few times, you are far enough away to try to run. You shouldn’t be shooting someone who is 10 feet away from you. Why? B/c he isn’t trying to kill you. he cant kill you from 10 feet unless its some kind of wild west gun fight.

[Kuky]

Oh man... I wish we had an "ugh *slaps own face*" smiley... That's just wrong... and frankly, if the NRA charged for this training/testing, they'd make more money... Oh well, I'll just have to be careful if I go to florida. I might have to invest in some protection (http://www.amazon.com/o/asin/B00067F1CE).

[Lone_Raider]

Oh that's right, you can't carry concealed weapons in my state, its illegal. You know my state is sane and realizes there is no need to have guns hidden under your jacket in any circumstance. And because of that there is no required class, there is only a 1 day FBI check waiting period. But again, you can't carry concealed weapons here.

And where did I get the idea of threat from? You, dumbass!

"and use deadly force if "he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself"

And like I said, the concept of what a dangerous situation is varies from person to person, the guy in my situation might have thought he was about to be murdered for his wallet so he killed a guy. And seeing that you are nitpicking the Miami thing, say its Palm bay then where I used to live and there is no one around? Anyone could say anything they wanted after killing someone and if they really believe that they were about to be hurt they would get off!

And to say I don't know "anything" about self defense is pushing it. Unlike you I have highly specialized martial arts training and can defend myself without a gun, varying my defense from minor damage, to breaks, to death if the person is in fact trying to kill me, but I doubt I would ever have to use it to that degree.

With that said, what the hell do I care what Florida does. That was the worst fucking state I have ever been to or lived in, in my entire life. Between the crazy ass rednecks who hated my family because they were from the north, the alligator's in my back yard because of the Canal, and the crap ass dirt farmer wages amongst other things, it sucks! So go ahead and start shooting each other when you feel threatened, not like your state is going to be above water much longer with the 40 hurricane's that hit it every year anyway.

[ittakessome]

haha. I must agree that FL sucks ass. Where I am right now is ok. We’re not redneck and we're not a city in South America. But it still sucks ass!



"and use deadly force if "he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself"
that’s a quote from the law.
Basically, if you kill someone just b/c you think they might have hurt you; you have to realize you’re going to jail. Here or anywhere. This law doesn’t imply that you will get off. b/c you’re not going to. “Reason to believe” isn’t like, “oh I thought he might kill me b/c he is scary Spanish man and I am small white woman.” It’s a lot more in-depth and if you wish to research defense forums and here what people who are actually doing concealed carry say, then go ahead. You might learn more than just your weird speculations and wild scenarios.
And I highly doubt that any kind of martial arts training will help if the situation ever arises where you are getting beat to death. Tell me how it turns out if it ever happens.
And that ends my input in this thread. If someone has a legit question, p/m me. If not, discuss irrelevant situations and the idea of never needing a gun. I wish the world were like that. I do. But its not and some people would rather take their safety in their own hands. Trust me, these people aren’t ready to just kill whoever whenever. They know the consequences of their actions. Take my advice, research it and talk to people who do it. Let them explain to you why.