The argument for being a vegetarian.

[tiredoflogins]

A lifetime commitment to a vegan or lacto-vegetarian diet is a prerequisite for initiation into the Quan Vin Method. Foods from plant sources and dairy products are permitted on this diet, but all other foods from animal sources including eggs should not be eaten. There are many reasons for this, but the most important comes from the First Precept, which tells us to refrain from taking the life of sentient beings, or "Thou shalt not kill."

Not killing or otherwise harming other living creatures is of obvious benefit for them. Less obvious is the fact that refraining from harming others is equally advantageous for ourselves. Why? Because of the law of karma. "As ye sow, so shall ye reap." When you kill, or cause others to kill for you, in order to satisfy your desire for meat, you incur a karmic debt, and this debt must eventually be repaid.

So, in a very real sense, the keeping of a vegetarian diet is a gift which we give to ourselves. We feel better, the quality of our lives improves as the heaviness of our karmic indebtedness diminishes, and we are offered entrance into new subtle and heavenly realms of inner experience. It is well worth the small price you have to pay!


The spiritual arguments against eating meat are convincing for some people, but there are other compelling reasons for being a vegetarian. All of them are rooted in common sense. They have to do with issues of personal health and nutrition, ecology and the environment, ethics and animal suffering, and world hunger.

Health and Nutrition

Studies of human evolution have shown that our ancestors were vegetarian by nature. The structure of the human body is not suited for eating meat. This was demonstrated in an essay on comparative anatomy by Dr. G. S. Huntingen of Columbia University. He pointed out that carnivores have short small and large intestines. Their large intestine is characteristically very straight and smooth. In contrast, vegetarian animals have both a long small intestine and a long large intestine. Because of the low fiber content and high protein density of meat, the intestines do not require a long time to absorb nutrients; thus, the intestines of carnivores are shorter in length than those of vegetarian animals.

Humans, like other naturally vegetarian animals, have both a long small and large intestine. Together, our intestines are approximately twenty-eight feet (eight and a half meters) in length. The small intestine is folded back on itself many times, and its walls are convoluted, not smooth. Because they are longer than those found in carnivores, the meat we eat stays in our intestines for a longer period of time. Consequently, the meat can putrefy and create toxins. These toxins have been implicated as a cause of colon cancer, and they also increase the burden on the liver, which has the function of getting rid of toxins. This can cause cirrhosis and even cancer of the liver.

Meat contains a lot urokinase protein and urea, which add to the burden on the kidneys, and can destroy kidney function. There are fourteen grams of urokinase protein in every pound of steak. It living cells are put into liquid urokinase protein, their metabolic function will degenerate. Furthermore, meat lacks cellulose or fiber, and lack of fiber can easily create constipation. It is known that constipation can cause rectal cancer or piles.

The cholesterol and saturated fats in flesh also create cardiovascular disorders. Cardiovascular disorders are the number one leading cause of death in the United States.

Cancer is the second leading cause of death. Experiments indicate that the burning and roasting of flesh creates a chemical element (Methylcholanthrenel) which is a powerful carcinogen. Mice given this chemical develop cancers, such as bone tumors, cancer of the blood, cancer of the stomach, etc.

Research has shown that infant mice fed by a female mouse having breast cancer will also develop cancer. When human cancer cells were injected into animals, the animals also developed cancer. If the meat which we eat daily comes from animals that originally have such disorders, and we take them into our body, there is a good chance we will also get the diseases.

Most people assume that meat is clean and safe, that there are inspections done at all butcheries. There are far too many cattle, pigs, poultry, etc., killed for sale every day for each one to actually be examined. It's very difficult to check whether a piece of meat has cancer in it, let alone check every single animal. Currently, the meat industry just cuts off the head when it has a problem, or cuts off the leg which is diseased. Only the bad parts are removed and the rest is sold.

The famous vegetarian, Dr. J. H. Kellogg said, "When we eat vegetarian food, we don t have to worry about what kind of disease the food died of. This makes a joyful meal!"

There is yet another concern. Antibiotics as well as other drugs including steroids and growth hormones are either added to animal feed or injected directly into the animals. It has been reported that people eating these animals will absorb these drugs into their bodies. There is a possibility that antibiotics in meat are diminishing the effectiveness of antibiotics for human use.

There are some people who consider the vegetarian diet not sufficiently nourishing. An American surgical expert, Dr. Miller, practiced medicine for forty years in Formosa. He established a hospital there, where all the meals were vegetarian, for staff members as well as the patients. He said, "The mouse is one kind of animal which can support its life with both a vegetarian and non-vegetarian diet. If two mice are segregated, with one eating flesh and the other vegetarian food, we find that their growth and development are the same, but that the vegetarian mouse lives longer and has greater resistance to disease. Furthermore, when the two mice got sick, the vegetarian mouse recovered quicker." He then added, "The medicine given to us by modern science has improved greatly, but it can only treat illnesses. Food, however, can sustain our health." He pointed out that, "Food from plants is a more direct source of nutrition than meat. People eat animals, but the source of nutrition for the animals we eat is plants. The lives of most animals are short, and animals have nearly all the diseases that mankind has. It is very likely that the diseases of mankind come from eating the flesh of diseased animals. So, why don't people get their nutrition directly from plants?" Dr. Miller suggested that we only need cereals, beans and vegetables to gel all the nourishment we need to maintain good health.

Many people have the idea that animal protein is 'superior to plant protein because the former is considered a complete protein, and the latter is incomplete. The truth is that some plant proteins are complete, and that food combining can create complete proteins out of several incomplete protein foods.

In March 1988 the American Dietetic Association announced that: "It is the position of the ADA that vegetarian diets are healthful and nutritionally adequate when appropriately planned."

It is often falsely believed that meat eaters are stronger than vegetarians, but an experiment conducted by Professor Irving Fisher of Yale University on 32 vegetarians and 15 meat-eaters showed that vegetarians had more endurance than meat eaters. He had people hold out their arms for as long as possible. The outcome from the test was very clear. Among the 15 meat-eaters, only two persons could hold out their arms for fifteen to thirty minutes; however, among the 32 vegetarians, 22 persons held out their arms for fifteen to thirty minutes, 15 persons for over thirty minutes, 9 persons for over one hour, 4 persons for over two hours, and one vegetarian held his arms out for over three hours.

Many long distance track athletes keep a vegetarian diet for the time preceding competitions. Dr. Barbara More, an expert in vegetarian therapy, completed a one hundred and ten-mile race in twenty-seven hours and thirty minutes. A woman of fifty-six year s of age, she broke all the records held by young men. ' I want to be an example to show that people who take a whole vegetarian diet will enjoy a strong body, a clear mind, and a purified life.

Does the vegetarian get enough protein in his diet? The World Health Organization recommends that 4.5% of daily calories be derived from protein. Wheat has 17% of its calories as protein, broccoli has 45% and rice has 8%. It is very easy to have a protein rich diet without eating meat. With the additional benefit of avoiding the many diseases caused by high fat diets such as heart disease and many cancers, vegetarianism is clearly the superior choice.

The relationship between over consumption of meat, and other animal source foods containing high levels of saturated fats, and heart disease, breast cancer, colon cancer and strokes has been proven. Other diseases which are often prevented and sometimes cured by a low fat vegetarian diet include: kidney stones, prostate cancer, diabetes, peptic ulcers, gallstones, irritable bowel syndrome, arthritis, gum disease, acne, pancreatic cancer, stomach cancer, hypoglycemia, constipation, diverticulosis, hypertension, osteoporosis, ovarian cancer, hemorrhoids, obesity, and asthma.

Ecology and the Environment

Raising animals for meat has its consequences. It leads to rain forest destruction, global heat rising, water pollution, water scarcity, decertification, misuse of energy resources, and world hunger. The use of land, water, energy, and human effort to produce meat is not an efficient way to use the earth's resources.

Since 1960, some 25% of' Central America's rain forests have been burned and cleared to create pasture for beef cattle. It has been estimated that every four-ounce hamburger made from rain forest beef destroys 55 square feet of tropical rain forest. In addition, raising cattle contributes significantly to the production of three gases which cause global warming, is a leading cause of water pollution, and requires a staggering 2464 gallons of water for the production of each pound of beef. It only takes 29 gallons of water to produce a pound of tomatoes, and 139 gallons to produce a one pound loaf of whole wheat bread. Nearly half of the water consumed in the United States goes to the growing of feed for cattle and other livestock.

Many more people could be fed if the resources used to raise cattle were used to produce grain to feed the world's population. An acre of land growing oats produces 8 times the protein and 25 times the calories, if the oats are fed to humans rather than to cattle. An acre of land used for broccoli produces 10 times the protein, calories and niacin as an acre of land producing beef. Statistics like these are numerous. The world's resources would be more efficiently utilized if the land used for livestock production were converted to raising crops to feed people.

Eating a vegetarian diet allows you to "tread more lightly on the planet." in addition to taking only what you need and reducing excess, it will feel better when you know that a living being doesn’t have to die each time you eat a meal.

Nearly one billion people suffer from hunger and malnutrition on this planet. Over 40 million die each year of starvation, and most of them are children. Despite this, more than one third of the world's grain harvest is diverted from feeding people to feeding livestock. In the United States, livestock consume 70% of all the grain produced. If we fed people instead of livestock, no one would go hungry.

Animal Suffering

Are you aware of the fact that more than 100,000 cows are slaughtered every day in the United States?

Most animals in Western countries are raised on "factory farms." These facilities are designed to produce the maximum number of animals for slaughter at the minimum expense. Animals are crowded together, disfigured and treated like Machines for the conversion of feed into flesh. This is a reality that most of us will never see with our own eyes. It has been said that, "One visit to a slaughterhouse will make you a vegetarian for life."

Leo Tolstoy said, "As long as there are slaughterhouses there will be battlefields. A vegetarian diet is the acid test of humanitarism." Although most of us do not actively condone killing, we have developed the habit, supported by society, of eating meat regularly, without any real awareness of what is being done to the animals we eat.

[Fun Lovin' Criminal]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a160/NeonMonk/boring.jpg

[Shocka]

Originally posted by tiredoflogins@Aug 7 2005, 06:51 PM
Although most of us do not actively condone killing, we have developed the habit, supported by society, of eating meat regularly, without any real awareness of what is being done to the animals we eat.
Actually, I'm well aware of what's being done to the animals I eat, and I enjoy every delicious bite.

[Wolf]

Vegetarian diets make you weaker. Fact. There are many different types of protien and fat, and you'd be silly to think it all comes from plants and is all as potent. Since I train to protect my countrymen and their interests, I'll remain strong, thanks. Freedom is paid for with blood, be it mine or cows'.

[Bravehearter]

Go listen to that song 'The Circle of Life' from Lion king.

Creatures eat other creatures to survive, Thats how she goes.

Humans, like it or not, are a creature that throughout our history have eaten animals to survive and further push our species to great things.

Because some hippy tells me 'its wrong' doesnt mean it is. I love meat, I will continue to eat me because its what I want to do. The only reason I would stop eating it, is because 1) I didnt like the taste 2) it was having a horrible effect on my body. 3) we ran out.

I think that in this free society, if I want to go and have a 12 oz steak on a Sunday evening, I should have that right, PETA can kiss my ass.

[Anthropolemic]

(insert obligatory People Eating Tasty Animals post)

[Bravehearter]

Maddox sums up my stance nicely:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/bigpot6.jpg

[Lone_Raider]

Human beings are omnivores, we were designed to eat both plants and animals, deal with it. I've met some vegetarians and vegan's, they were all lethargic, skinny and weak looking, we need meat for strength.

[Rainbow Brite]

Originally posted by Lone_Raider@Aug 7 2005, 12:08 PM
Human beings are omnivores, we were designed to eat both plants and animals, deal with it. I've met some vegetarians and vegan's, they were all lethargic, skinny and weak looking, we need meat for strength.
I agree, they look so pale and malnourished sometimes that I want to buy them a cheeseburger.

If we weren't meant to eat meat, it wouldn't taste so good

[MuthaFranka]

Originally posted by Lone_Raider@Aug 7 2005, 11:08 AM
Human beings are omnivores, we were designed to eat both plants and animals, deal with it. I've met some vegetarians and vegan's, they were all lethargic, skinny and weak looking, we need meat for strength.
lol, that's not true at all.

One of the vegetarians I know played D-line in college football. The other has been a gymnast for the past 20 years. Neither of them are weak or malnourished.

The argument for a vegetarian diet is a good one. Meat fucks with your health, it messes up your colon, and in this day and age you have to worry about catching all sorts of lovely diseases, and let's of course not forget the fucking vitamens and other weird shit none of us know about that are fed to these animals.

And then there's the whole issue of the insane amount of time and energy spent raising, feeding and slaughtering these animals, and the inhumane treatment they all endure.

Now that being said, I do indeed eat meat. Hell I even have some McDonald's now and then. However I try to be careful of the meat I do buy, and certainly don't eat nearly as much of it as most gluttonous americans. And it's rarely red meat, chicken is just fine.

All I'm trying to say is that meat most certainly needs to be included in a human diet, we're made that way. But the amount and type of meat we eat as a culture is nasty and bad for you, plain and simple. I wonder why 50 percent of the country is fat.

[Lone_Raider]

Originally posted by MuthaFranka@Aug 7 2005, 12:15 PM
One of the vegetarians I know played D-line in college football. The other has been a gymnast for the past 20 years. Neither of them are weak or malnourished.
Really? Well the few I've known never looked all to healthy! lol.

I should add that for meat I primarily eat chicken, and the only red meat I periodically eat is roast beef and even less frequently a steak or hamburger. Yesterday I ate chicken for 2 out of 3 meals haha.

[IGemini]

Is it so much for the original poster to WRITE THEIR OWN FUCKING MATERIAL, OR PROVIDE A LINK?!

http://www.timeismine.com/articles/bevegetarian.htm

I have half a mind to close this thread just on that, but I'll let those who actually take time to type to respond.

[HurleyGirlie]

Originally posted by Lone_Raider@Aug 7 2005, 10:08 AM
Human beings are omnivores, we were designed to eat both plants and animals, deal with it. I've met some vegetarians and vegan's, they were all lethargic, skinny and weak looking, we need meat for strength.
I'm in complete agreement.
There are 2 or 3 vegans at my school (a culinary school, mind you) and they all look pale and lanky.


For the record....
I :heart: foie gras!!!

[NightHawk]

i am a complete vegan, as i have been ever since i was born. i'm about 6'2, 160 pounds and have a nice tan...well, in some spots...only get one side of my arms when i'm biking...

anyhow, it's true, to not eat meat is missing out on a lot of nutrients. i have to make kind of a protein shake every morning to help me get the full days supply. this is all because i have a metabolic disease called phenylketonuria (look it up if you're bored), so i've never had any meat really and i never will. but i'm healthy just the same.i can't remember a time in high school where i called in sick and actually was. and i had 6 years of it! but that's a different post...

[Bravehearter]

Originally posted by NightHawk@Aug 7 2005, 03:15 PM
i am a complete vegan, as i have been ever since i was born. i'm about 6'2, 160 pounds and have a nice tan...well, in some spots...only get one side of my arms when i'm biking...
I wasnt familiar that eating vegtables had anything to do with your time spent exposed in the sun.

[ps_tiger]

I choose not to eat most meat because most of it is extremely non-sustainable or the way it's raised is really disgusting. I personally chose not to give my money to companies that feed their animals unhealthily or pollute. However, that doesn't make me a complete vegetarian. If I know where meat came from and how it was raised, I'll eat it. For example, my uncle raises a few sheep, and I'll eat his lambs, no problem. But I am so not into eating meat that, for all I know, was raised in a field of shit and mud and fed it's ground-up grandparents mixed with chicken crap. it's like the difference between wild-caught salmon and farmed atlantic salmon. Farmed salmon don't eat the right stuff or get enough excersize, so their meat is usually pretty white. Farmers actually put colerant in the fish's food to make the meat LOOK pink (seriously, look on the lables of farmed salmon - they always have some sort of color as an ingredient). And that's why wild salmon tastes so much better - because it's healthy, doing what a slamon is SUPPOSED to do.

With that said, I know that a lot of plant farming isn't sustainable, either. But you have to pick your battles in this life, and I do as much as I can.

[Bath of Glitter]

This article is wrong from the start. It's Quan Yin, not Quan Vin.
You're just trying to incite an argument tiredoflogins, and chances are you are a hit and run poster.

Originally posted by Wolf+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Wolf)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Vegetarian diets make you weaker. Fact.[/b]

Then where are your facts?


Originally posted by Bravehearter+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bravehearter)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Go listen to that song 'The Circle of Life' from Lion king.[/b]

Because songs really matter, right? Go listen to Silverchair's 'Spawn Again.'

Creatures eat other creatures to survive, Thats how she goes.

Humans, like it or not, are a creature that throughout our history have eaten animals to survive and further push our species to great things.

We don't need meat to survive anymore. Unless you live in a jungle location or a third world country.


<!--QuoteBegin-LoneRaider@
I've met some vegetarians and vegan's, they were all lethargic, skinny and weak looking, we need meat for strength.[/quote]

Yeah. Skinny, weak meat eaters don't exist. Neither do strong vegetarians. Tell that to Murray Rose who was the youngest to win triple gold in the Olympics. He was a strict vegetarian since birth.


<!--QuoteBegin-MuthaFranka
Meat fucks with your health, it messes up your colon, and in this day and age you have to worry about catching all sorts of lovely diseases, and let's of course not forget the fucking vitamens and other weird shit none of us know about that are fed to these animals.[/quote]

Cite your source. Free range meat exists you know...

chicken is just fine.

So chickens are treated humanely now? What about salmonella? Or *gasp* the impending avian bird flu?

All I'm trying to say is that meat most certainly needs to be included in a human diet, we're made that way.

Yet you made the argument that your gymnast and football acquaintances are doing just fine.

[Bravehearter]

Yes Bath of glitter they do matter. You have found my secret. I base all my knowledge, posts and entire life around disney showtunes, particularly those song by Sir Elton John.

For fuck sakes I was making a stupid remark about how animals eat other animals. didnt need you to come in here making assumptions.

Get the pickle out of your ass, then come back.

[MuthaFranka]

Facts? Well I suppose you could look them up yourself, I'm not your mother. I thought that was all rather well known, but I don't really know what to expect from you.

And when I refer to the meat I eat, I do indeed eat free range beef and chicken. I spend the extra money on it because I can't stomach the thought of eating that nasty shit you buy at the Safeway.

Those friends manage to stay that way because they compensate for the lack of meat in other ways. You can't argue against the fact that you need the proteins and vitamins the meat in your diet provides, whether you get them artificially or not. I'm sure your weightlifter example got to where he was by chowing down on salad three meals a day.

Why are you such an angry little man? You could always post your own opinions instead of spending so much time trying to rip other people's.

[Bath of Glitter]

Originally posted by Bravehearter+Aug 7 2005, 07:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bravehearter @ Aug 7 2005, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Yes Bath of glitter they do matter. You have found my secret. I base all my knowledge, posts and entire life around disney showtunes, particularly those song by Sir Elton John.

For fuck sakes I was making a stupid remark about how animals eat other animals. didnt need you to come in here making assumptions.

Get the pickle out of your ass, then come back.[/b]
I suppose next time I'll have to include silly emoticons in my posts just in case someone gets bent out of shape over my comments. :boohoo:


<!--QuoteBegin-MuthaFranka
Facts? Well I suppose you could look them up yourself[/quote]

Someone who states something as factual is obligated to provide evidence. Otherwise their statement is moot.

I'm sure your weightlifter example got to where he was by chowing down on salad three meals a day.

Close... swimmer.

Why are you such an angry little man?

This question doesn't apply to me for two reasons.

You could always post your own opinions instead of spending so much time trying to rip other people's.

The comments I responded to were hardly opinions.

[MuthaFranka]

Well actually I find facts as mundane as that, which are basically an example of cumulative knowledge from over the years, to not really need back up. I wasn't exactly quoting anything just throwing something out there.

If you however can find a way to prove me wrong, feel free, I always like to see it.


And I wonder where I got weightlifter? Drugs, most likely.

[Bath of Glitter]

Originally posted by MuthaFranka@Aug 7 2005, 07:59 PM
Well actually I find facts as mundane as that, which are basically an example of cumulative knowledge from over the years, to not really need back up. I wasn't exactly quoting anything just throwing something out there.

If you however can find a way to prove me wrong, feel free, I always like to see it.


And I wonder where I got weightlifter? Drugs, most likely.
Well thanks for not getting defensive. I really have no desire to prove anyone wrong.

Oh and my opinion: I'm actually eating a hamburger right now.

[rcwant2be]

Originally posted by tiredoflogins@Aug 7 2005, 10:51 AM
Most animals in Western countries are raised on "factory farms." These facilities are designed to produce the maximum number of animals for slaughter at the minimum expense. Animals are crowded together, disfigured and treated like Machines for the conversion of feed into flesh. This is a reality that most of us will never see with our own eyes. It has been said that, "One visit to a slaughterhouse will make you a vegetarian for life."

Leo Tolstoy said, "As long as there are slaughterhouses there will be battlefields. A vegetarian diet is the acid test of humanitarism." Although most of us do not actively condone killing, we have developed the habit, supported by society, of eating meat regularly, without any real awareness of what is being done to the animals we eat.
regarding slaughterhouses, please see my response in this thread...
http://www.therfs.com/index.php?showtopic=17057&hl=peta

as far as "factory farming" goes...have you ever eaten free ranging beef or free ranging anything for that matter? prolly not. it'd be like gnawing on shoe leather.

animals are placed in confinement for meat quality, safety, and health.

the bottom line is, money talks. in order for farms to be competitive in today's markets, they must treat their farms like the businesses they are. agriculture is becoming increasingly technological to keep up. this is not to say that animals are mistreated or abused. again, i'll refer you to the work of dr temple grandin www.grandin.com who's done great work in animal housing & movement.

specific questions? ask me.

[Barefoot Matt]

Jeez, everyone's so touchy about this... What's the big deal?

I was vegetarian for a year or so when I lived in the dorm in my first year of university. The veggie dishes at the cafeteria tasted better than the meat ones :laugh:. My health was just fine on a meatless diet. For that matter, I've never even seen a single one of these mythical weak, malnourished vegans... All the vegans I've seen look a lot healthier than most people. If you've seen an unhealthy vegetarian, it's probably one who doesn't know how to be a vegetarian. You have to actually think about what you're eating to make sure you get complete proteins and all the essential nutrients. If you don't do that, sure, you're going to be unhealthy. If you do it right, though, you'll be the healthiest kid on the block.

[ittakessome]

i've never been presented with any facts that would make me even think about being a vegetarian, let alone vegan. it doesn’t seem to be more beneficial than eating healthy all around. ie- a correct daily dose of all the food groups.

i need meat.

[TylerDurden]

http://1-2-3-direct.com/forum_stuff/kobe1.jpg

The idea that vegans are healthier is silly. It's a matter of watching what you eat and making sure it's balanced.

Meat comes in different forms.. there's the crap you buy from Superstore.. and there's the higher quality stuff.. what you choose is up to you

[Bath of Glitter]

Originally posted by TylerDurden@Aug 8 2005, 02:02 AM
Meat comes in different forms.. there's the crap you buy from Superstore.. and there's the higher quality stuff.. what you choose is up to you

Luckily $90 is in my price range.

[hunny]

I really doubt this, or any other argument, is going to persuade a confirmed meat-eater to become a vegetarian. People eat what they want to eat. It's as simple as that. I choose not to eat meat or poultry, because I just plain dislike eating it. It tastes bad to me; feels like dead flesh in my mouth, blech. Can't do it. I really didn't like eating meat even as a child but then, I'd just sorta try to 'avoid' eating it: push it around my plate, take a bite or two and possibly spit it into my napkin. When I got to be a teenager, I just stopped pretending and gave it up altogether. Now I eat a little fish occasionally so I'm not a strict vegetarian, but like everyone else, I eat what I want. I'm not unhealthy in the sense of being weak or mal-nourished. My weight is fine; not over or under what it should be. No weak bones or iron deficiency.
Hey, if people want to eat meat, they should do so, by all means. But don't presume that anyone who chooses NOT to is less healthy. That's just not true.

[Sydney123456]

Vegetarian diets tend to be more healthy, if you're taking the necessary supplements with them. There are vitamins and minerals you won't be getting if you eat just veggies. For example, if you eat a salad every day, that's bad. You need legumes and plant oils.

This is thanks to the new food pyramid, which says red meat should be eaten it high moderation:
http://whyfiles.org/179food_pyramid/images/healthy_eating_pyramid.gif
This was released January 2005.


Just like if you eat meat, if you are stupid and don't watch what you're eating...it's bad for you. Not to mention, vegetarianism tends to be a gateway to anorexia in college age women (18-25).

For the record, I personally think this new food pyramid is pretty wacky. Pills, exercize (which isn't even FOOD), and alcohol are now in there! However, there are good suggestions.

[Barefoot Matt]

The alcohol in moderation is for your heart. It's true! Moderation is the key word though; getting hammered twice a week isn't quite as good for you as a glass of wine every other day ;)

[Lone_Raider]

Alcohol and pills!?! Yikes, how is that on the food pyramid. I don't drink alcohol at all, ever. Last time I drank alcohol I was like 3 years old, didn't know what I was doing and drank half a beer that was laying around at my grandparents apparantly lol.

Since then I have never touched a single drop. But I always hear that a glass of wine now and then is good for the heart, maybe I should start haha.

[StrayDog]

I have a question for the vegans and vegetarians doing it for moral issues of not wanting to cause pain and suffering.

Do you have pets? If so what kind?

[ittakessome]

Sydney123456, where did you get that food pyramid? i searched for "2005 food pyramid" and i got this one over and over and over. didnt see the one you posted.

its from the USDA. (http://www.mypyramid.gov/) and you can put in your body info and get a more precise plan.

[water nymph]

See, I don't liek foaming at the mouth vegetarians just like I don't like foaming at the mouth liberals, conservatives, meat eaters or what-have you. When they try to shove their rhetoric down my throat it just makes me want to do the exact opposite. So on that thread....calm down people.

I eat meat. I don't always feel good about it, sometimes I feel like a hypocrite for doing it but I still do. Now before you jump down my throat, the reason why I eat meat is simply this: I don't like veggies all too much. I was and still am (partially) a picky eater. I'm teaching myself to liek veggies more. Being vegetaraian simply isn't feasible for me because I wouldn't eat enough. I'm working on developping a taste for veggies and in the meantime I steer towards free range meats and eggs. We don't eat nearly as much meat as the typical American family so I'm nat taking in a vast quantity of meat. But that's just me.

I agree with vegetarianism on a whole, as a principle, but I don't think that it is the cure-all for humans. We have always eaten meat and we always will, end of story for me. Whether you personally eat meat is up to you, just don't go shoving your rhetoric into people's faces about it. You have every right to explain your views but once you get antagonistic about it you've stepped over the line.

[Fun Lovin' Criminal]

Sometimes I'll eat meat just to spite vegetarians.

[Sydney123456]

Originally posted by ittakessome@Aug 8 2005, 10:43 PM
Sydney123456, where did you get that food pyramid? i searched for "2005 food pyramid" and i got this one over and over and over. didnt see the one you posted.

its from the USDA. (http://www.mypyramid.gov/) and you can put in your body info and get a more precise plan.
http://images.google.com/images?q=2005%20f...lr=&sa=N&tab=wi (http://images.google.com/images?q=2005%20food%20pyramid&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wi)
I just googled "2005 food pyramid" (sometimes "new food pyramid") and it comes up under images, and then I check out the websites.


I also did a presentation in a class about the dangers of vegetarianism, and to be quite honest...there really isn't any if you aren't dumb about it. There is nothing wrong with taking meat out of your diet, as long as you eat a balanced diet of everything else. And, if you keep meat in your diet...do it in moderation, because that is dangerous.

The bottom line is: DON'T BE A FUCKING MORON WHEN YOU EAT!

[NightHawk]

Originally posted by Rainbow Brite@Aug 7 2005, 04:51 PM
I agree, they look so pale and malnourished sometimes that I want to buy them a cheeseburger.

...

I wasnt familiar that eating vegtables had anything to do with your time spent exposed in the sun.

anyhow, i wanted to make the comment that i think because i don't eat meat, i believe i'm much healthier than if i did. i mean, i can't remember the last time i was actually sick...well, discluding colds which tend to be a yearly thing. and i eat like shit. i mean, all i ate yesterday was a 20 pack of 7-11 potato wedges and a 2 litre of pepsi. normally i eat a lot more, but it's most all junk food. i'm still healthy, and i even have a well below average cholestorol. there are definate health benefits to being vegetarian. i mean, as long as you get the nutrients.

don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to convert people here. i mean really, what the hell do i care if you eat babe? although, i really don't like how there's damn near a racism against vegetarians.

Sometimes I'll eat meat just to spite vegetarians.

you must feel really special. you know, when i tell people that i can't eat meat or dairy...the girls wanna know why, but a lot of the time the guys wanna know why i'm such a pussy. i mean, once i explain the situation to them, they don't care...but it pisses me off that somebody trying to be healthier than normal would be labelled a pussy or a freak. i mean, if anything, i'm the freak but they'd accept me before they accepted someone who chose to be vegan.

[Fun Lovin' Criminal]

No no, I don't do it in front of them. I'll just be walking past a place that sells meat, and I'll go: "Hmm, I'm not that hungry" "...but wait! Someone, somewhere, is a vegetarian. Better buy some meat to help fill their void."

[water nymph]

See, NightHawk, that's what I mean. You're a good vegan. I don't think that there should be so much bias from either side. Eating meat to spite people is rude unless they shove their rhetoric in your face (then it's fair game in my opinion).

Maybe you should just eat veggies to spite people....that would be fun. "Hah! Look I'm eating HEALTHY food!"

[Bath of Glitter]

Originally posted by NightHawk@Aug 9 2005, 12:42 PM
anyhow, i wanted to make the comment that i think because i don't eat meat, i believe i'm much healthier than if i did. i mean, i can't remember the last time i was actually sick...well, discluding colds which tend to be a yearly thing. and i eat like shit. i mean, all i ate yesterday was a 20 pack of 7-11 potato wedges and a 2 litre of pepsi. normally i eat a lot more, but it's most all junk food. i'm still healthy, and i even have a well below average cholestorol. there are definate health benefits to being vegetarian. i mean, as long as you get the nutrients.

Are you serious? How can you possibly say you eat shit then in another sentence say there are benefits to being vegan, as though being vegan gives you free range? Just because your cholesterol is ok and you don't get sick doesn't mean your body isn't lacking nutrients.

don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to convert people here.

You aren't? Why, eating fried potatoes and drinking nothing but soft drinks sounds heavenly!


i mean really, what the hell do i care if you eat babe? although, i really don't like how there's damn near a racism against vegetarians.

Try discrimination. You won't look as silly.


it pisses me off that somebody trying to be healthier than normal would be labelled a pussy or a freak.

Maybe they spotted you inhaling a bag of Fritos while wearing a 'Veggie Eater' t-shirt.


And for all you politically correct lovers, and those who are uptight, I am being mostly jocular and sarcastic.
:high:

[ittakessome]

i think the arguement would be better suited for us "meat eaters" if it were "eat more veggie based things", rather than "red meat is the devil".

that link i posted earlier had a section for vegetarians that i found interesting. there are some things i'd like to incorporate into my diet. LINK (http://www.mypyramid.gov/tips_resources/vegetarian_diets.html)

[Burro]

...Man, the original poster sure shut up in a hurry, after "typing" oh-so-much.

[Kira]

Don't really care about others input.

Fuck vegetables, eat other animals. Why ? Because you fuckin can. Don't give a shit about a cow, don't give a shit about a chicken, they taste good. PERIOD. If I really gave a flyin fuck about them or was concerned with harming animals, I wouldn't eat them. Untill then get fucked, die, I don't give a shit, in my belly you go, they taste GOOD and I will eat them, if I die early oh well, this place isn't that great anyway.

[Kira]

hm let me add this :

PS: FUck you and your PETA bullshit.

Just had to get it out ! :biggrin:

[MuthaFranka]

Just off the top of my head I don't really remember anybody being a PETA advocate. They a bit crazy if you ask me.

Kira, are you always so pissed off at the world in general?

[hunny]

Oh, Christ, some of you people.

Who's coming across here as the lunatics? The people who say they'd rather not eat bloody meat, or those who are on here saying "I eat meat to piss off vegetarians" (like we care; grow up), or "fuck PETA", when PETA isn't even the issue here at all.

[StrayDog]

Well, no one saw my question. Anyway, I'll just ask it again.

You vegetarians and vegans who have adopted this diet for moral reasons (ie: in order to not cause another breathing thing pain) do you have any pets?

I always find how certain people can live in the western world, in the same society as mine, practice vegetarianism and veganism, and still function perfectly without going crazy.

HOnestly.
It seems to me as if it is inherently selective and hypocritical if you do.

Selective because they protest the slaughter of animals as a dietary source whilst condoning/keeping a blind eye/ even practicing the keeping of higher mammalia, such as dogs and cats, for pets.

Pets, that in North America, probably meant that they came from a breeding farm for cute puppies and kittens. Breeding farms that forcibly breed a stock of viable sires and bitches in order to put out litter after litter. Don't forget that these breeding farms inherently practice genetically dangerous inbreeding just to keep the chosen breed pure and so on and so forth.

I dunno. Maybe you don't keep a pet. If so, kudos to you for actually living up to the morals you have subscribed to..

But I've seen more than one moral vegan and moral vegetarian who keep a pet or two. And about that, I cannot help but think... HYPOCRISY!

It seems to me that these morals are purely for convenience. That they're there just to placate yourselves into thinking that you are not causing pain and you are not causing harm. That just because you think you haven't contributed to the death of another animal for meat, that you are morally superior.
Do you still feel morally superior despite having yanked off Rover's testicles and lassie's ovaries so that thet have no hope of ever spreading their genes. Do you still feel morally superior after having confined your fishes in a glass box for the better part of their lifetime? Do you still feel morally superior whenever you confine your little birdie in her cage, and in effect totally denying her the freedom of flight? Do you really think being in the "safety" of your residence, where they are "safe from predators" really is a better existence for an animal?

If so, then bullshit. You cannot call yourself a moral vegan and or vegetarian whilst keeping another animal captive.

-------



Well, enough of that.

My position is this:

I eat meat as a part of a healthy balanced diet. Quite honestly, I haven't always been a balanced eater. I was a heavy carnivore when I used to live in a third world country. Now, that's a bit misleading - it WAS a third world country, but I don't deny that we were upper middle class rural farm owners. That said, I had all the fresh meat that I could enjoy. It was eight years ago when we left the rich rural Philippine life. *sigh*

After having moved here to Canada, a vegan once told me that I eat meat because I don't see the animals being slaugthered, and that if I did, I might change my mind. Oh, but I have! I have even taken the knife/gun/battle axe to them myself, and know a few deadly techniques. For timid cattle, our method was still primitive: we didn't have the clean cut shocker that knocked them unconscious. What we had was a big blade and a swift blow to the spinal cord. Fowls died best by severing the carotid and dripping the blood over uncooked rice. Pigs were the same, except their blood isn't often collected. Fish you just take them out of water.

Anyway, enough about that.

What I'm trying to get at is that early on, I have been exposed to livestock and farming. Because of this, I believe that I have a deeper understanding of the finiteness of earth's resources more than the average Canadian suburbanite.
Our ricefields, our mangoes, along with our pigs, chickens, and cattle were all our riches. Had we ever mismanaged them, we would have been done for. This is how I came to appreciate respect for living things, respect for nature, and conservationism. YOu cannot keep taking from the earth and expect things not to run out.

That is the amount of respect I extend to all things living. Whether I kill them or not is irrelevant. MOrals. Fuck that. Who's morals? As I have made mention earlier, the North American version of morality for nature is nothing more than what is antrophomorpically acceptable enough. That kind of bullshit is something I cannot stand. Only human arrogance can lead anyone to believe that they are actually doing mother nature a favour by foregoing meat protein and such.

One part I do agree with about vegans and vegetarians is the type of farming used here in North America. GOing back to what I said earlier, moving here to Canada has made me a more balanced eater. Only here did I start incorporating more vegetables into my diet. Why? Because your meat is shit. It tastes crappy, it's textured crappy and you cannot cook it without having it fall apart. Someone mentioned free range meat will be leathery? Well, if you cook it boring 'ol caucasian style, it will.

Well, there you go. That's a former tropical farm boy's rant.

[StrayDog]

Well, I guess I kidna went off tangent...


After the thread starter's plagiarization of another article, everyone started discussing the nutritional repercussions of a vegetable only diet and what not.

I guess ALL i focused on were the vegetarians/vegans and their 'killing is bad' rhetoric - something that the original article did touch on, mind you, so I wasn't all out of place.

whatever, had to get that off my head.

[Barefoot Matt]

Straydog: I'm glad you posted all that, it was interesting to read. Here are my responses as a sometimes-veggie.

Regarding pets: my dog that died recently was one that was abandoned as a puppy. If we hadn't taken him in, he'd have been dead long ago. He had as good a life as he could have, with love, expensive medications, and big yards to play in. I wouldn't buy a dog from a puppy farm or pet store because of the way the puppies are treated; I would buy one from a professional breeder who treats the dogs with respect, if it weren't for the fact that there are plenty of dogs that need homes in the animal shelters.

Regarding killing: I'm not of the camp you mentioned that believes that killing is always bad. I do believe that animals, and the environment in general, deserve our utmost respect. This means that the animals we eat must be treated humanely and never taken for granted.

Regarding rcwant2be's comment that free-range meat would be leathery: have you ever actually had any, Tonya? Even wild moose isn't leathery. The only leathery meat I've had is beef (regular, farmed beef) that's been cooked dry. My guess is that if you have had leathery free range meat, it wasn't cooked properly.

[StrayDog]

Originally posted by Barefoot Matt@Aug 10 2005, 06:22 AM
Straydog: I'm glad you posted all that, it was interesting to read. Here are my responses as a sometimes-veggie.

Regarding pets: my dog that died recently was one that was abandoned as a puppy. If we hadn't taken him in, he'd have been dead long ago. He had as good a life as he could have, with love, expensive medications, and big yards to play in. I wouldn't buy a dog from a puppy farm or pet store because of the way the puppies are treated; I would buy one from a professional breeder who treats the dogs with respect, if it weren't for the fact that there are plenty of dogs that need homes in the animal shelters.


Neato. Those are the pet owners I admire.

But you gotta admit, abandoned puppies are just another byproduct of our consumer based society. Where even loved ones become disposable when they weren't planned for, have lost their useful shelf life, or perhaps we have just tired of them.

And that's really why I'm not too concerned about the raising and killing of animals for meat protein. At least that was for a good cause. Managed properly, the effects on nature should be minimal. Hell, farming has been around for thousands of years. Just like everything that's a product of human civilization, there IS harm in it when overdone and overcommercialized.

But unwanted pets being put down needlessly because no one would take them to a good home? Living, breathing, things just discarded because no one else can recognize the companionship they might provide? This to me is a waste and is of a bigger concern than curtailing meat eating and the raising of livestock.

Yes I did mention spaying and neutering your animals as maybe inhumane. I do acknowledge though that doing so may help prevent unwanted puppies, kittens and what not... but it's just waaay too convenient to impose our own human views of birth control and planning on 'lower' animals isn't it? Again, it seems to me as if what's moral is merely what's anthropomorphically acceptable enough.



Now, I too can be labeled hypocrite because I also had lots of dogs and cats back home in the motherland. THough we never got them spayed or neutered, I would have preferred that we did, given the chance. *shrug* Hey, at least I never carry around the so called morals of not making anyTHING suffer. If I can have a dog right now, I will - and I would probably have him/her neutered/spayed.

...

Well, I dunno. DId I just contradict myself there with that closing? I don't believe so...
My contention stands: any vegetarian and or vegan who maintains such a diet because they strongly believe in curtailing the suffering of living things, should extend that belief to the point that they will also fight certain forms of pet-keeping, pet modification (in the form of spaying, neutering, and other cosmetic body mods such as ear cropping and tail bobbing), and needless pet breeding.
Add to that Zoos, animal shows, and such where we've held animals captive so that they may entertain us.

Oh, and I'm not even done yet.

Human environmental modification has us killing the habitat of every little animal, believe it or not. Whenever you farm in the prairie for grain, you take away habitat from burrowing mammals, which in turn takes away food from high predators, which in turn destroys the balance of the environment. Whenever you dam up a river to create a freshwater reservoir for human consumption, you adversely affect the spawning and propagation of certain fish species. When you take away all the unwanted weeds and grass from your front yard in favour of landscaping sod, you take away grazing grass for wild hares and rabbits (this I found out for myself), not to mention a fertile breeding and hunting ground for creepy crawly insects and those that specialize on predating on them.

That was long... but you get the point. YOu cannot live in modern society, forego meat, and then claim yourself moral.

The ONLY way to really live up to such a moral belief of not causing suffering is by minimizing our environmental impact as much as possible - which to me boils down to a nomadic, tribal lifestyle.
But fuck, even then, the people who still practice this aren't strict vegans and vegetarians, are they?

Nope. They still hunt and kill. HOwever, they do this as responsibly as possible. Again, proper environmental management! I've heard of certain nomadic tribes that actually walk up to the animal that they hunted down and apologize to it before it draws it's last breath. Very praiseworthy in my opinion. They then whisper as to who will enjoy the fruits of the animal's suffering - that it is for his family, his relatives and so on and so forth.




In closing I reiterate: only human arrogance can lead anyone to think that foregoing meat products is a favour to nature.

If you are to convince me of this moral stance, then you should extend this belief far enough to the point of shunning all human civilization.

[Bath of Glitter]

Originally posted by Kira@Aug 9 2005, 10:03 PM
Don't really care about others input.

Fuck vegetables, eat other animals. Why ? Because you fuckin can. Don't give a shit about a cow, don't give a shit about a chicken, they taste good. PERIOD. If I really gave a flyin fuck about them or was concerned with harming animals, I wouldn't eat them. Untill then get fucked, die, I don't give a shit, in my belly you go, they taste GOOD and I will eat them, if I die early oh well, this place isn't that great anyway.
Your daily rant thread is thattaway.

[Lone Wolf]

Originally posted by Kira@Aug 10 2005, 04:03 AM
this place isn't that great anyway.
I wonder why.



No, wait, probably I don't.

:wtf:

[MuthaFranka]

i hardly think keeping a domesticated animal, sheltering it, and having it treated all around better than most HUMANS, is just a tad different than eating it.

Or perhaps I'm wrong.

[NightHawk]

Originally posted by Bath of Glitter@Aug 9 2005, 06:51 PM
Are you serious? How can you possibly say you eat shit then in another sentence say there are benefits to being vegan, as though being vegan gives you free range? Just because your cholesterol is ok and you don't get sick doesn't mean your body isn't lacking nutrients.

because i do eat like shit by general standards, and there is health benefits to being vegan. i did not say it gave me free range. and you're right, i would be lacking nutrients if i didn't have a prescribed nutrient shake i made every damn morning for my Metabolic Disease. but, i did say: there are definate health benefits to being vegetarian. i mean, as long as you get the nutrients.

You aren't? Why, eating fried potatoes and drinking nothing but soft drinks sounds heavenly!

no, i'm not. when did i ever say anything bad about meat eating? all i said was that there was benefits to veganism and talked about how i am because i can't eat meat or dairy products. and i was actually encouraged by my dietician to drink lots of pop to keep my calories up. i can't eat meat or dairy, but i also have to keep an eye on how much food i take in overall. so i need to get extra calories from elsewhere to sustain energy and body weight. and the fried potatoes are good for me because that's pretty much all i can eat. if i got to a restaraunt, my options are fries, onion rings, a salad, maybe a soup-, maybe a dish of pasta. one of those is my meal. you're thinknig as if i have choices. i don't.you try and stay under 10 grams of protein in one day. the nutrition information is on the back. good luck. (oh, and a big mac is 24grams of protein, the mcdonalds veggie burger is 28. a large fries is 12 or 14 grams of protein. a bag of ichiban noodles is 10. just to give you an idea of how much protein is in them)

Maybe they spotted you inhaling a bag of Fritos while wearing a 'Veggie Eater' t-shirt.

maybe they were just being narrow minded.

you may have been joking, but that really offended me because people do consider me a freak for not eating meat or dairy until they found out it's a disease ahnd it really does bother me because it's so stupid. i have never said that you should be a vegan, i really don't care. the thing is, don't get pissy at me because i am vegan and i am healthy even though i eat like shit. i never said anything bad about meat eaters or anything except the ones that consider vegans freaks, but that is narrow minded and i have no respect for it. and i especially have no respect for you, bath of glitter, for ripping apart my post for no reason other than to try and flame me over something that i have no control over. this is a disease i have had since birth, i will have until the day i die, and i bet you didn't even bother to look any information about it up. call me uptight if you want, i just don't like to be flamed for putting my story in, it wasn't even really my opinion.

[Bath of Glitter]

Fine. I understand about your metabolic disease. What I don't understand is this comment:

i wanted to make the comment that i think because i don't eat meat, i believe i'm much healthier than if i did. i mean, i can't remember the last time i was actually sick...well, discluding colds which tend to be a yearly thing.

You are an unusual case, so making this argument really isn't all that fair. People with your condition cannot consume such food, so of course you're going to be healthier. The point is moot.
Congratulations, you wasted your time responding seriously to playful comments because you couldn't put your ego aside. Another instance of where explaining myself doesn't even matter because people refuse to listen.

i especially have no respect for you, bath of glitter, for ripping apart my post for no reason other than to try and flame me over something that i have no control over.

Self absorption at its finest.
Forget about even responding; it's unlikely I'll even read it.

[NightHawk]

Originally posted by Bath of Glitter@Aug 11 2005, 09:58 AM
You are an unusual case, so making this argument really isn't all that fair. People with your condition cannot consume such food, so of course you're going to be healthier. The point is moot.
actually, i think my points are very valid because due to the restrictions of my diet, i have to be vegan. and i will be for the rest of my life. and considering this is a discussion about being vegetarian, someone who has been vegan all their life would be worth listening to. we already have plenty of life long omnivores, but it seems i'm the only life long vegan, so people should know how my lifestyle in terms of health and wellness is. the only thing that makes me truly unusual is that i have a dietician for this and a supplement, but as i said in most eveyr post i've made so far, you'd still have to find a way to get all the nutrients!

if you're going to make an argument, you should be able to defend it. it doesn't matter to me wether or not you're joking, i'm not.

[Fun Lovin' Criminal]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a160/NeonMonk/mmmbbq.jpg

[MuthaFranka]

You do know a vegan is somebody who doesn't use ANY animal products correct?

I mean like..leather shoes, and the like.

And who the hell treats you differently cuz you don't eat cow? Who even figures it out?

[Burro]

Ever.... you know, thought of contributing positively to a forum rather than just making an ass of yourself by being an internet nit-picker? Good lord lighten up and take the fist from your ass Bath of Glitter, typing is so much easier with two hands.

[ps_tiger]

Originally posted by StrayDog@Aug 10 2005, 08:16 AM
If you are to convince me of this moral stance, then you should extend this belief far enough to the point of shunning all human civilization.
I have two cats and three goldfish. We got both cats as strays from an animal shelter, and my three fish were rescued from a frat party where they were being used as a decoration. Some fish died from alcohol poisoning (beer poured into their bowls). I know that my pets have had a better life in my care than they would have had otherwise, and maybe are even alive because I adopted them.

I think the problem here, Stray, is that you are implying that food-morality is an all or nothing deal. If that were the case, everyone would be a fruitarian (http://www.fruitarian.com/ao/WhatIsFruitarianism.htm). But extremes, in general, are not realistic, because there is generally more than one factor affecting an individual's decisions. For example, Tyler Durden really likes $90 steak. He believes that $90 steak is the only moral thing for him to eat. But Tyler Durden doesn't have enough money to eat $90 steak every night. So Tyler Durden must compromise and only eat $90 steak every three weeks. The same thing applies to the extreme lifestyle you suggest. It may be important to a person to conserve the environment, but they also want to keep in touch with their family (which requires a phone/postage if they're spread out a bit), teach children to read (if you're a teacher, you usually have to shower and dress decently), etc. People have to make compromises between the things that are important in their lives, and vegetarianism/selective eating is one of those compromises.

[Barefoot Matt]

I agree, Alexis. It's possible to be concerned for the environment without being willing to sacrifice everything for it. Just because you don't want to waste gas by driving a hummer doesn't mean you have to renounce automobiles and ride your bike everywhere.

[StrayDog]

Originally posted by ps_tiger@Aug 12 2005, 01:58 AM
I think the problem here, Stray, is that you are implying that food-morality is an all or nothing deal. If that were the case, everyone would be a fruitarian (http://www.fruitarian.com/ao/WhatIsFruitarianism.htm). But extremes, in general, are not realistic, because there is generally more than one factor affecting an individual's decisions. The same thing applies to the extreme lifestyle you suggest. It may be important to a person to conserve the environment, but they also want to keep in touch with their family (which requires a phone/postage if they're spread out a bit), teach children to read (if you're a teacher, you usually have to shower and dress decently), etc. People have to make compromises between the things that are important in their lives, and vegetarianism/selective eating is one of those compromises.
Thank you.

It was a setup, really. I was waiting for something like that.
I too am a person of compromises.

That's what I have been implying all along. I care about the environment enough to do certain things the conservationist's way. I have minimal garbage output and reuse and recycle as much as I can. I don't drive an SUV. I don't hunt wild game, and I don't play golf. I once kept pets and would do so again when I get the chance. As a grandson of a farmer, I was exposed to the raising of livestock and then killing them for our own food and or selling them for profit so that we may survive daily. Did I cause undue suffering and needless death to the animals we kept? Nope, I don't beleive so. All of it was just to fulfill a need. Did I feel good that we were raising and breeding animals just for the sole purpose of profit and food? Yes I did, that was our livelihood. Did I feel bad once in a while? Yes. There were times that certain cattle, fowl, and swine became more endearing because they were less afraid to approach humans and be petted (but then I'd dismiss that to one reason alone: they see me as a food source. Anthropomorphism has no space for a livestock farmer)

But I'm no angel. There was one animal I ruthlessly slaughtered, murdered, and abused. Cane Toads. How did I justify it? Easy, they too were a product of human arrogance; that we can introduce a species to a place where they don't belong originally and expect the resulting consequences to be all good. They didn't belong in our country and they were (still are) causing great harm to that environment's local frog population.

Sorry. Again, I've digressed.

I've made my rants here purposedly long just so everyone can see the context of where I stand. This is my background. THis is how I grew up. And this is what I believe.

I will not retract what I said, because that's still how I see it...
If you wanna convince me of this moral stance, there's a lot more damaging things you have to stop doing.

Truthfully, this is a case where I would have just shut up and not mention anything. Live and let live right? But certain vegans and vegetarians don't always tolerate my meat eating habits. ...meat that I eat guilt-free because *I* realize that on the other end of that steak or burger is just another livestock farmer just like we once were.
So, should I tolerate anyone who doesn't tolerate me?
The thing is, the only reason why I have a lot to say about the moral stance of vegetarianism and veganism is that once, a few vegans attacked my meat eating habits. This was my ammo in retaliation.

As a parting shot, I should add that I do have vegetarian friends and acquaintances (I and one vegan couple too). For the most part, it is left unsaid - they eat what they eat, I eat what I eat.

[StrayDog]

There was another trap I had there, but no one touched upon it as much.

For vegetarians and vegans doing it for moral reasons, and then keep a spayed and neutered pet for their own, how do they justify that?

I still have trouble figuring that out. I'm not saying that I necessarily believe what I will be typing here. But I am, however, trying to reason at their level - trying to think as they think so to speak. And truthfully, it does not compute.

I mean, they condemn the practice of determining an animal's final fate to a food product, yet by keeping a pet, aren't they determining the fate of an animal into servitude by castrating it so it doesn't breed, training it so as to eliminate all traces of wild behaviour and substituting an anthropomorphically acceptable behaviour set? "Sit, stay, shut up, and don't fuck"

Really. If you think Doggie and kitty have a choice because they stay with you, then you don't understand animal behaviour enough to warrant moral judgements in any direction. Bottomline is that domestication is a form of slavery. Food and companionship for behavioural conditioning and elective de-sexing surgery. The equation is simple.

[ps_tiger]

Well, cane toads. That's another story. As far as I'm concerned, I'd eat cane toads (in Australia and Hawaii and any of those other places where they've been introduced) for breakfast, lunch and dinner, if I wanted. No problem there.

[MuthaFranka]

Well the spaying and neutering thing is a necessity.

If we were to suddenly let every domesticated animal out into the wild to roam and fuck at will, we'd be over run and we'd have to murder the poor things just to keep the population in check.

[NightHawk]

Originally posted by MuthaFranka@Aug 11 2005, 10:08 PM
And who the hell treats you differently cuz you don't eat cow? Who even figures it out?
i'm not sure that was directed at me, but i'll answer anyway. people find out i can't eat meat or dairy when they offer it to me. or when they see me making a pizza with no meat or cheese on it, or getting a garden sub. it's not like i run around tellnig everybody i don't eat meat, but they pick up on it on their own because it's different to them. at least, in my experiences.

[Palmer of the Turks]

http://www.shinraonline.com/palmer/music/c...iceismurder.mp3 (http://www.shinraonline.com/palmer/music/carrotjuiceismurder.mp3)

[water nymph]

Palmer...we can't go there, that's illegal for an rf'er to do..... :whistle:

[Kuky]

Yeah, but it's arrogant worms!

[TylerDurden]

Originally posted by NightHawk@Aug 12 2005, 02:07 PM
they see me making a pizza with no meat or cheese on it
Forgive me for being ignorant... but how does one make a pizza without cheese? Do you use the soy products that are kinda like cheese.. but not? If so.. how do they compare to cheese?

[Deidre]

Background: The "Smart Tree" is an intelligent tree that talks, and also happens to be someone's home.

http://www.herdthinners.com/gifs/2005/0812.gif

http://www.herdthinners.com/gifs/2005/0813.gif

[NightHawk]

Originally posted by TylerDurden@Aug 16 2005, 08:01 AM
Forgive me for being ignorant... but how does one make a pizza without cheese? Do you use the soy products that are kinda like cheese.. but not? If so.. how do they compare to cheese?
my pizzas are not really pizzas by your standards i guess. i get: extra ranch instead of pizza sauce, onions, mushrooms, green peppers, tomatos. and then i put it through the oven.you're right, it is very unusual, that's why people ask.

[water nymph]

Try making a tandoori sauce pizza with mango chutney...it's amazing!

[Palmer of the Turks]

Originally posted by water nymph@Aug 13 2005, 09:38 PM
Palmer...we can't go there, that's illegal for an rf'er to do..... :whistle:
Not in Canada!

[Six Black Roses]

"I'm sorry for killing you... M'kay, bye now, I'm going to eat you."

Hahahaha... ah. That's just so Wall Street.

[Minimus]

...I just finished a whopper from burger king...mmm...Meat.

I think people just need to eat healthy man...rawr

[AllHailTheThief]

Ah I'm glad this was sparked back up with my recent conversion and all.

I could give a shit less about the condition of most animals we eat as food. They are the dumbest of the dumb, and aren't really even aware of life in the first place, so I don't really give two shits if they live or die. I think the treatment of said animals up til death is pretty brutal, but that can be changed.

What is REALLY keeping me from eating meat is humanity. There's so many people literally starving to death by the second, while we continue to gorge ourselves on animal products that cost a ridiculous amount to produce, pollute the land we're living in and not to mention the health aspect of eating it.

Do you all realize how many starving people we could feed if a country just like ours cut our meat consumption in half and we used the resources saved in order to feed hungry people? Hundreds of thousands. And yes, I'm targeting the land of "steak and chicken" specifically cuz to my knowledge there's no other place that eats meat like we do.

And shall we also look at the industry in general? It's overrun with foul practices, unsafe handling procedures, fucking with the animals in order to get a higher yield. Hormones and all kinds of preservatives that human beings should never consume being injected into your food? Disgusting.

And also how bout we look at what the beef industry has done to the trade of farming. Farming is non-existent because it has become a major conglomeration that has gotten rid of almost all small time farmers that can't keep up with the prices offered by these huge industries that hire migrant workers to take care of their business, and in the process spraying fecal matter all over what you're planning on stuffing down your throat?


It's a disgusting bunch of nonsense. Physiologically we're not designed to consume meat at this level, we've been conditioned to think that protein is the end all be all in the world of suplements and let's not forget the social bullshit surrounding not eating meat. God knows you wouldn't wanna be some faggot environmentalist right?

Keep stuffing that sick disgusting crap down your throats so you can all die a little faster. I need the space for my pool.

[Wolf]

I've met many vegetarians, all of them weak and pale and thin.

Now maybe it's just chance, maybe not, that the veggies I've met are like that.

But I eat meat, and I'm healthy.




I donate to charity all the time. Don't guilt me out of my goddamn meal.

[hunny]

I DON'T eat meat, and I'm far from "pale and weak and thin." There's a lot more to being healthy than eating meat.
I steer clear of these vegetarian arguments, because my reason for abstaining from meat is basically because I dislike it. But I DO eat nearly anything else, which is enough to maintain a healthy diet.

[Enani]

plants are people too!

[Lone Wolf]

I DON'T eat meat, and I'm far from "pale and weak and thin." There's a lot more to being healthy than eating meat.
I steer clear of these vegetarian arguments, because my reason for abstaining from meat is basically because I dislike it. But I DO eat nearly anything else, which is enough to maintain a healthy diet.



Yup, me too.

I eat very seldom meat/fish (once a month maybe) and am far from pale and thin. Meat's just too expensive here.

[hunny]

=)

Anyone who thinks Luca is pale/weak/thin due to lack of meat protein, hasn't seen his pictures.

[Wolf]

=)

Anyone who thinks Luca is pale/weak/thin due to lack of meat protein, hasn't seen his pictures.
Well I believe him, having had a common trade.


So maybe it doesn't make you weak, pale, and thin, or you have to work harder to maintain your health. I still like meat, quite a bit, and won't be guilted out of a meal.

[CrowNofThornS]

mmmmm, meat balls... Mystery meat from heaven.

[Truth]

Long Live MEAT

[AllHailTheThief]

Weak and thin?

lol, I've been called many things in my lifetime and "weak" and "thin" have never been any of them. Although, i was a bit of a stick in the 1st grade.

Of course I've only been doing this for a little over a month now, we shall see what another couple months brings.

And I'm glad I made at least one of you people feel guilty. You really should.

[Wolf]

And I'm glad I made at least one of you people feel guilty. You really should.

And here you are, spending money on the internet when you should be spending it on feeding the hungry.

I hope you're not talking about me feeling guilty, because I don't.

[AllHailTheThief]

...Not even just a little bit? C'monnn...

I feed plenty of hungry people thanks. I think I can allow myself internet access.

[Jared]

Hell, I eat meat all the time, and I'm the most pale and thin person I know! :lol:

[Bath of Glitter]

All hail the beef.

[AllHailTheThief]

The best part about this so far has been the times when i drive past a McDonald's on a hot day and want to vomit because of the smell emenating from the building. MMMMMM, fake beef!

[Wolf]

I hate fast food meat too, rest assured. If I can still read the newspaper they cut it with, it's definitely not good enough for me.

[Wolf]

...Not even just a little bit? C'monnn...


Nope. Sorry.

[hunny]

I've no desire to make anyone feel 'guilty' for what they eat or don't eat.
You want to eat beef? Go ahead; eat a whole cow; eat a fucking herd if you feel like it! I realize they're raised for food and if that's food to you, I could care less.
Clog those arteries with all the animal fat you can, then when you're in for the triple bypass in 20 years, we'll see who's healthier.

[Wolf]

I've no desire to make anyone feel 'guilty' for what they eat or don't eat.
You want to eat beef? Go ahead; eat a whole cow; eat a fucking herd if you feel like it! I realize they're raised for food and if that's food to you, I could care less.
Clog those arteries with all the animal fat you can, then when you're in for the triple bypass in 20 years, we'll see who's healthier.


There's a difference between being a disgusting pig and just eating meat.

Yes, I do consume meat. Do I eat meat at every meal? No. Do I eat fatty meats? No, I prefer chicken and lean beef.

Frankly, fat on meat is just about the most disgusting thing I've ever eaten. Pork is disgusting for this very reason, and I don't eat pork because it's so damn fatty. Further, I cook my meat in vegetable oils, the virginest olive oil I can, if available, and eat it with a healthy supply of vegetables.

If you think eating meat dooms you to an exploding heart, you've been sorely misled.

[Kuky]

I think I've reached a point where most of my meat intake consists of fish (the kind that swims in the water!!! Geez! Dirty minds!!!) I eat so much sushi compared to beef and chicken that it overpowers my meat intake. It's a good thing :). Raw meat has so many more vitamins and minerals than when people order a "well-done" steak. That being said, I do love a nice medium rare piece of cow hehe.

Shrimp kicks ass - I like bite-size animals. You know none of it goes to waste (except the little tail fin, ugh).

[Bath of Glitter]

I've no desire to make anyone feel 'guilty' for what they eat or don't eat.

Right. You just feel like affirming your superior health:

Clog those arteries with all the animal fat you can, then when you're in for the triple bypass in 20 years, we'll see who's healthier.

[Enani]

I think I've reached a point where most of my meat intake consists of fish

you mean you don't like big fat hungarian sausage?
you're not a ... big ... sausage fan?
you don't like to ... take that big sausage ... and put it in your mouth, and roll it around on your tongue?
you don't enjoy ... taking it in your hand and .. give it a little squeeze?

[AllHailTheThief]

There's a difference between being a disgusting pig and just eating meat.

Yes, I do consume meat. Do I eat meat at every meal? No. Do I eat fatty meats? No, I prefer chicken and lean beef.

Frankly, fat on meat is just about the most disgusting thing I've ever eaten. Pork is disgusting for this very reason, and I don't eat pork because it's so damn fatty. Further, I cook my meat in vegetable oils, the virginest olive oil I can, if available, and eat it with a healthy supply of vegetables.

If you think eating meat dooms you to an exploding heart, you've been sorely misled.

I definitely agree, I just don't like endorsing the industry. Meat isn't the death of humanity, it's just our country in particular seems to eat it like it's going out of style.

I assume eventually I'll eat chicken now and then, and probably fish, but that'll be later.

[Kuky]

you mean you don't like big fat hungarian sausage?

Hey, don't wear out my pornstar name!

[hunny]

Bah, no, I'm normally a very low-key vegetarian. Actually I eat a little fish once in awhile so I'm not strictly vegetarian. I just get a little tired of the ridiculous comments about how weak and malnourished we must be without eating bloody meat.
Do I think there are health advantages to abstaining from meat? Yes, I do, but whether or not anyone is convinced of that isn't something I care a great deal about.
Eat up, man!

[Enani]

Bah, no, I'm normally a very low-key vegetarian. Actually I eat a little fish once in awhile so I'm not strictly vegetarian. I just get a little tired of the ridiculous comments about how weak and malnourished we must be without eating bloody meat.
Do I think there are health advantages to abstaining from meat? Yes, I do, but whether or not anyone is convinced of that isn't something I care a great deal about.
Eat up, man!

POTATO KILLER!

FRIES ARE MURDER!

[hunny]

Lol, Enani! You can change your name as many times as you want but you're still the same old AITON to me.

:D
Erm, that's not a bad thing, either. :D

[Kuky]

Isn't there a song called Carrot Juice is Murder or something like that?

[AllHailTheThief]

Potatoes scream the loudest