Creationism vs. Evolutionism

[Deidre]

I was just recently speaking to a friend of mine who does Bio-Chemistry at Cambridge and she was complaining about how hard it is to be a rabid atheist there since everyone's devout Christians and she even has a number of creationist lab-partners.

Studying archaeology, myself, I've never even heard of a creationist in my field (then again, I have never spoken to a biblical archaeologist), since the whole idea is rather based on evolution.

What are you? Creationist, evolutionist, something in between (e.g. God created the Earth/is the Big Bang, and everything else is just evolution by his wishes) or other (e.g. sparks from Muspellsheim fell among the water vapor in Niflheim creating vapor in Ginnungagap, which made the body of the primeval frost giant whose sustenance made creation)?

[Lone_Raider]

Originally posted by Deidre@Jul 23 2005, 11:55 AM
(e.g. sparks from Muspellsheim fell among the water vapor in Niflheim creating vapor in Ginnungagap, which made the body of the primeval frost giant whose sustenance made creation)?
Oh, do I love Norse mythology, the stories are so great I wish they were real! lol. :mrgreen:

Anyway, having just argued the case for evolution in a different thread, you know my vote.

[chiukit]

evolutionist here.

norse mythology > greek. heh.

that's weird though. i'm a biochemist, well something like that anyway, and there are NO creationists in my field...

[huh]

Evolutionist here as well. When I was younger I was a Christian and did believe in creation, though this was pretty much because my whole family is Christian. It didn't take me too long to start questioning it. I now consider myself an Atheist and I've done a lot of reading regarding the theory of evolution and biology in general. I love learning new information about it and find it amazing how species come to be and interact with each other.

Many of my friends are devout Christians who are involved in church and believe in creation. I find it hard to believe that with all the evidence and knowledge available for evolution and many of its concepts that they still choose to believe in Christianity, or any God for that matter. I think the main problem is that it's pushed into their brain at such an early age that unless they choose to search for real information and think about their beliefs critically on their own it will be hard for them to change. I view creation as one big mind block. All it does is provide people with an easy answer to the complexity that is life and prohibits them from thinking any further about our existence. It seems to give people a sense of comfort and purpose when they think that we were created by some higher being. However, I get more satisfaction out of realizing that this is my one shot at life and I don't plan on wasting it by believing in some myth of religion.

[Fun Lovin' Criminal]

To be honest, I've never really cared. I lean much more to evolution, but I certainly wouldn't be rabid about it. I really don't think there's much point debating it, even with myself.

[Kuky]

I said evolutionist, cause all signs (crying portraits of mary aside) point to it.

However, as an agnostic, I don't deny the possibility that we were all created, say, 5 minutes ago, with all the 'old' fossils just existing in their state.

[LynzyLou*]

Evolutionist here. My family has never really been very religious, so I was never brought up to think that way. Besides, I dont believe in God, so that kinda throws that whole side right out the window.

[Am I tight or not?]

PRAISE THE LORD! JESUS IS MY SAVIOR!! PRAISE THE LORD!

I'm an evolutionist, of course. no magical beings in the sky for me.

[sunfrost]

I'm a biologist... need to say more, evolutionism it is...

[Barefoot Matt]

Originally posted by sunfrost@Jul 23 2005, 03:19 PM
I'm a biologist... need to say more, evolutionism it is...
Ditto.

I have a friend - also a biologist - whose boyfriend is a creationist. That's a bit of a point of contention between them :laugh:. The creationist also happens to be an environmental chemist... go figure.

[Anthropolemic]

Evolution, baby.

[Lone_Raider]

Originally posted by Anthropolemic@Jul 23 2005, 08:10 PM
Evolution, baby.
Pearl Jam reference? Or am I looking to far into it? lol ;)

[Anthropolemic]

You're looking very far into it. :)

[The Original Taco]

To be short, creationist.

I resent calling myself something "in between" even though I do believe in evolution...I still consider myself a creationist despite my beliefs in an old earth.

[Asphodelle13]

Wow. A lot of evolutionists here..

And Greek Mythology pwns u.

[NightHawk]

i've always been one to believe the facts...i mean, sure, there';s the possibility of creationism...but gonig by what we have...i follow evolution.

[Crash Override]

Originally posted by Am I tight or not?@Jul 23 2005, 05:10 PM
no magical beings in the sky for me.
I chose "In-Between" because, really, I kind of like the idea of magical beings in the sky. :lol:

Seriously though, I do believe in most of the tenets of evolution, but I still believe in a "higher being" or "God" if you will.

[Fun Lovin' Criminal]

I don't see why they can't co-exist. Depending on your idea of creationism.

[Don Simeone]

Originally posted by Barefoot Matt@Jul 24 2005, 02:34 AM
I have a friend - also a biologist - whose boyfriend is a creationist. That's a bit of a point of contention between them :laugh:.
woah, that must be tough...i almost had a fight with my gf because she's an agnostic and i'm an atheist :)

anyway, evolution, of course...dont know anyone who's creationist...then again, i dont know many americans...or many people who believe in god for that matter...ahhhh europe

[Deidre]

Originally posted by Don Simeone+Jul 24 2005, 11:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Don Simeone @ Jul 24 2005, 11:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> anyway, evolution, of course...dont know anyone who's creationist...then again, i dont know many americans...or many people who believe in god for that matter...ahhhh europe [/b]
While I don't personally know any creationist either, the "aaah, Europe" comment seems a little out there when the whole thread is based on a bunch of creationists IN EUROPE. :P

<!--QuoteBegin-Fun Lovin' Criminal@Jul 24 2005, 09:52 AM
I don't see why they can't co-exist. Depending on your idea of creationism.[/quote]
Hence the "in between" option... for the people who are "rabid" about neither. :P

[sunfrost]

Originally posted by Deidre@Jul 24 2005, 12:09 PM
While I don't personally know any creationist either, the "aaah, Europe" comment seems a little out there when the whole thread is based on a bunch of creationists IN EUROPE. :P
Don has a point with that reference... creationism isn't dead in europe but we don't try to teach it in science classes, yet...

It's like turning the clock back 60 years or so...

There should be a seperation of politics and religion but a clear seperation between science and religion as well. This doesn't exclude descent work ethics. Because ethics = religion, look at religious fundamentalism.

just my $0.02

[Deidre]

Originally posted by sunfrost@Jul 24 2005, 02:57 PM
Don has a point with that reference... creationism isn't dead in europe but we don't try to teach it in science classes, yet...
Don always has a point with that reference. Every time he makes a point it's how godless Europe is and that's why we're so much better than North America.

My point was that it's not entirely true.

I don't think I've heard of anyone going to jail for refusing to teach creationism in Europe (as in the US; still, Scopes went on trial in 1925 and that's hardly anything to judge things TODAY by), but that hardly makes things "better". "A teachers' union has said it is alarmed by an increase in lessons which teach that Adam and Eve was the literal truth, rather the fable which science believes it to be. The rise in creationism is not just an American phenomenon", writes the BBC, earlier this year.

One million Christian Britons were polled: "One-third of those surveyed believe Adam and Eve were created within six days of the start of the universe. Of the other two-thirds, some would accept evolution while others see Adam and Eve being created after six "ages" of creation, rather than six literal days.", also according to the BBC, earlier this year.

Creationism is taught in plenty of schools in Britain and they do try to teach it in science classes. They're a minority, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening:

http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search...=0&go.y=0&go=go (http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?scope=newsukfs&tab=news&q=creationism&go.x=0&go.y=0&go=go)

[Don Simeone]

Originally posted by Deidre@Jul 24 2005, 03:39 PM
Don always has a point with that reference. Every time he makes a point it's how godless Europe is and that's why we're so much better than North America.
so you DID get my point ! :)

nah, what i meant was, if i were to live in the US, the chance of encountering a creationist would be far greater than while living here...i AM surprised that appearantly there's a bunch of them in the UK

oh and all the americans shouldnt worry, i dislike about the same percentage of europeans as i dislike americans...except that the americans, i dislike a lot MORE...

eh, whatever, i'll stop talking about myself now

[Lone Wolf]

Just read "The last continent" by Terry Pratchett (a Discworld novel) and there's the god of evolution and... just read it, it's great 8)


What I am?

Well, since one of my projects was in group who does directed evolution, I can't deny evolution as a fact. It's possible, that we have been made in the last 5 minutes and everything just put there to look 100 million years old (again, read that book by Terry Pratchett :agree: ), but evolution still exists, driven by natural selection as postulated by Darwin.


Evolutionism doesn't exclude creationism for me: maybe we've evolved following a divine plan and it's not a big difference if a divinity took clay and made man or took clay and made a solar system, since an allknowing divinity already knows the course of history, right?



About the debate:
Religion shouldn't need politics to change people and politics should work for all people, religious or not. If you can't convince someone of how great your faith is, trying to force them to act following it's rules is just cheating.

[Lone_Raider]

Originally posted by Fun Lovin' Criminal@Jul 24 2005, 02:52 AM
I don't see why they can't co-exist. Depending on your idea of creationism.
I agree with that. I checked evolution becase I do in fact believe that it's a scientific fact. However, like Crash I wouldn't totally discount the existance of a higher being. Of course I don't believe in Dogma of any kind so I can freely mix and match beliefs. If you do that you might believe in some kind of "hands off" being who simply exists and did not interfere with the earth.

I'm not sure that's what I believe even, but that's the logic behind believing in evolution and a god like figure/s.

[ittakessome]

In between. God made the world... and the world evolved.

[huh]

To those that are saying they believe in Evolution as a scientific fact but still believe a higher being, or God, may have kicked it off from the very begining, that would be called Evolutionary Creationism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_creationism). Guess the inbetween option would be the closest to that, just thought I'd throw that out there though.

[Deidre]

Originally posted by huh@Jul 24 2005, 07:37 PM
To those that are saying they believe in Evolution as a scientific fact but still believe a higher being, or God, may have kicked it off from the very begining, that would be called Evolutionary Creationism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_creationism). Guess the inbetween option would be the closest to that, just thought I'd throw that out there though.
Yep. I chose to call it "in-between" because it gave room to all variations of the two extremes. Either people didn't read my original post or disregarded it, though, because it sounds like some people are chosing evolution and then saying "but I still believe God created everything".

[MuthaFranka]

Creationism = retarded
Evolution = A possibility

And I say that only because you can't be totally sure about evolution I suppose, yet it sure seems oh, about 1,000 times more feasible than the Folger's coffee guy waving a magic wand.

People that believe in creationism should shoot themselves right now for being morons.

[Bravehearter]

I am a very factual person.
Show me some proof. I can show you thousands upon thousands of research papers and textbooks backing up Evolution, Adam and eve? not so much.

If something doesnt seem right, it probably isnt.

No offense to any Christians here, but I have trouble tossing away thousands of years of science over a book of 400 year old heresay. And this is coming from someone who didnt miss a sunday at church for 16 years, and even helped teach sunday school. I chose to no longer take part because it would be irresponsible for me to teach something I didn't believe myself.

[The Original Taco]

Originally posted by Bravehearter@Jul 24 2005, 06:58 PM
I am a very factual person.
Show me some proof. I can show you thousands upon thousands of research papers and textbooks backing up Evolution, Adam and eve? not so much.

If something doesnt seem right, it probably isnt.

No offense to any Christians here, but I have trouble tossing away thousands of years of science over a book of 400 year old heresay. And this is coming from someone who didnt miss a sunday at church for 16 years, and even helped teach sunday school. I chose to no longer take part because it would be irresponsible for me to teach something I didn't believe myself.
hahaha...you don't have to be a Christian to be a Creationist!!

[ittakessome]

Originally posted by Bravehearter@Jul 24 2005, 11:58 PM
And this is coming from someone who didnt miss a sunday at church for 16 years, and even helped teach sunday school. I chose to no longer take part because it would be irresponsible for me to teach something I didn't believe myself.
same exact situation i was in. i taught sunday school to 2nd grade kids for about 3 years. i finally quit b/c i didnt believe what i was teaching them anymore. i dont mean i stopped believign in God. i mean the way they taught the kids Catholicism. i couldnt do it anymore. i havent gone to mass in like 2 years. i'd want to find a place i can go that isnt weird like Catholicism, (no offense to catholics), but that hasnt happened yet.

[MuthaFranka]

Originally posted by The Original Taco@Jul 24 2005, 10:38 PM
hahaha...you don't have to be a Christian to be a Creationist!!
No, just a jackass.

[The Original Taco]

Originally posted by MuthaFranka@Jul 24 2005, 11:18 PM
No, just a jackass.
Don't turn this into that, take your hate somewhere else...that's just disgusting.

[Sydney123456]

Originally posted by ittakessome@Jul 24 2005, 11:20 AM
In between. God made the world... and the world evolved.
Ditto.

I'm in between.

[MuthaFranka]

Originally posted by The Original Taco@Jul 25 2005, 02:37 AM
Don't turn this into that, take your hate somewhere else...that's just disgusting.
It's not hate so much as contempt for an utterly ridiculous concept.

It's not my fault people are so stupid, I'm just here to point it out to them when wear it on their sleeve.

[The Original Taco]

Originally posted by MuthaFranka@Jul 25 2005, 05:05 PM
It's not hate so much as contempt for an utterly ridiculous concept.

It's not my fault people are so stupid, I'm just here to point it out to them when wear it on their sleeve.
Obviously some people don't think it's stupid, that doesn't make them jackasses, or lunatics, it just means they don't agree with you...I really hope you don't think everyone who disagrees with you is a jackass, because ...frankly you'll never find anyone who fully agrees with you.

Think that they're jackasses all you want, but why do you have to be so rude to them? Is it not possible to just tell them that you disagree without name-calling? Like I told AITON in another thread, why can't you just relish in the fact that you're right and they're wrong and leave it at that?

You're intelligent and can always reveal a good point, but I just don't think being abrasive gets that point across very well.

[Bravehearter]

No offense Taco, but your the last person who should be giving lectures on being abrasive.

[Barefoot Matt]

Originally posted by Bravehearter@Jul 25 2005, 07:27 PM
No offense Taco, but your the last person who should be giving lectures on being abrasive.
I don't think it matters - it was a very good lecture! I think we should all take his advice to heart.

[Fun Lovin' Criminal]

http://www.catalaw.com/dov/graphics/g-farsid.gif

[lemmi]

I'll save you all with the truth of youth bible

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/848/sm18qj.th.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sm18qj.jpg) http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2828/sm23vv.th.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sm23vv.jpg)
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/8893/sm34lt.th.jpg (http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sm34lt.jpg) http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8115/sm44as.th.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sm44as.jpg)
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/3756/sm56qp.th.jpg (http://img117.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sm56qp.jpg) http://img275.imageshack.us/img275/379/sm68ob.th.jpg (http://img275.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sm68ob.jpg)

Sorry if they take a while to load

[Deidre]

I loved the part about how bicycles left out in the rain rust, rather than turn into motorcycles...

...because everyone knows bicycles have a genetic make-up that is passed on by breeding, which, by the way, happens when it stands alone in the rain. Everyone also knows that some time in the rain for a bicycle is equivalent of millions of years for everyone else.

That part was just a disservice to creationists.

[Lone Wolf]

Originally posted by lemmi@Jul 26 2005, 09:46 PM
I'll save you all with the truth of youth bible
So creationists are "afroamerican" christians?

Woah...

Everyday I learn something new.







Now someone call the Black Panthers.

[Rainne]

I believe in the comic.

All you horrible racists evolutionists. :nono:

Seriously, that was sick.

[MuthaFranka]

Originally posted by The Original Taco@Jul 25 2005, 08:39 PM
Obviously some people don't think it's stupid, that doesn't make them jackasses, or lunatics, it just means they don't agree with you...I really hope you don't think everyone who disagrees with you is a jackass, because ...frankly you'll never find anyone who fully agrees with you.

Think that they're jackasses all you want, but why do you have to be so rude to them? Is it not possible to just tell them that you disagree without name-calling? Like I told AITON in another thread, why can't you just relish in the fact that you're right and they're wrong and leave it at that?

You're intelligent and can always reveal a good point, but I just don't think being abrasive gets that point across very well.
I don't see calling somebody something as mild as "jackass" to really be all that rude or abrasive.

I happen to think it takes a total jackass to believe in something so asinine, let alone to believe in it so adamantly.

I'd say the same thing about any of the Bushie's on this site as well. I'm sure they think I'm a jackass as well. No big deal.

Actually that was me holding back. Would you rather I say it takes a gullible fool sumbitch to believe that some otherworldly being created the world and all life in 7 days, when in reality that makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. We're not talking about beliefs anymore, we're talking about what can actually be backed up by facts and knowledge not some retarded fucking idea.

Is that better?

[Lone_Raider]

Originally posted by Deidre@Jul 26 2005, 03:07 PM
I loved the part about how bicycles left out in the rain rust, rather than turn into motorcycles...

...because everyone knows bicycles have a genetic make-up that is passed on by breeding, which, by the way, happens when it stands alone in the rain. Everyone also knows that some time in the rain for a bicycle is equivalent of millions of years for everyone else.

That part was just a disservice to creationists.
Haha, yeah gotta love the logic pattern used in that comic strip.

And the bible, a book full of old Hebrew legends spread by word of mouth, then modified, edited, changed and twisted for thousands of years to suit the views of the men who led the Catholic church is said to be some kind of universal perfect truth? Well, it was written, then modified by human beings, and human beings are fallible according to that comic and the bible, so by using their logic pattern that men created science thus making it fallible, that means that men wrote the bible and created the church, so they are also faulty and full of lies.

However, logic is something that religious fanatics lack, they pretend to have logic then just say everything exists because of magic in the end :roll:

I also like how the only people to mention evolution are big stupid looking racist idiots who are picking on that kid. Anyone reminded of Ayn Rand and her portrayl of collectivist types as ugly, fat, and stupid while the individualist capitalist is handsome, tall, and smart? Wow, I didn't notice that visual depiction? duhhhh, I live in a cave :roll:

Ahh, people who deliberately use negative imagery to try and sneak their agenda under the radar. I see right through these jackasses.

[Tortuga]

Creationist.

Tortuga

[Fun Lovin' Criminal]

Tortuga, do you believe the world is 12,000 years old?

[ittakessome]

Originally posted by Fun Lovin' Criminal@Jul 28 2005, 03:49 PM
Tortuga, do you believe the world is 12,000 years old?
why must you try to question her beliefs?

[Fun Lovin' Criminal]

I'm just curious, I wasn't going to jump on her if she does. I ask that question of all Christian creationists, do you believe the Earth is 12,000 years old? And what is your take on dinosaurs, et al if that is the case?

[Deidre]

Originally posted by Fun Lovin' Criminal@Jul 28 2005, 05:49 PM
Tortuga, do you believe the world is 12,000 years old?
It's 12,000 for creationists now? Most creationists I've heard from are in the 6-8,000 year range.

[Am I tight or not?]

Originally posted by ittakessome@Jul 28 2005, 11:51 AM
why must you try to question her beliefs?
because it's fun ?

[Lone_Raider]

Originally posted by Fun Lovin' Criminal@Jul 28 2005, 11:21 AM
And what is your take on dinosaurs, et al if that is the case?
Really, how do creationists deal with dinosaurs? They arn't in the bible, adam and eve weren't fighting off dinosaurs, niether was Abraham or Moses or Noah. Yet they really existed, we have thousands of their skeletons, so how does one justify creation with them in existance? Did god create dinosaurs in your opinion as well? Dinosaurs are millions of years old, we can see their evolution via their skeletons into different species of dinosaur! And the evolution alone took millions of years and it all occured millions of years before humans even existed!

I just find it odd, I hear about creationism, but I don't ever hear a logical reasoning for the existance of dinosaurs?

[Deidre]

Originally posted by Lone_Raider@Jul 28 2005, 08:03 PM
Really, how do creationists deal with dinosaurs?
I have heard explanations concerning both dinosaurs and fossils as satan's temptation; a way to try to get people to disbelieve God.

Of course, if I was a creationist I'd say dinosaurs were high demons destroyed by gods/angels/saints/whatever. They look sort of like dragons, afterall.

[Lone_Raider]

Originally posted by Deidre@Jul 28 2005, 01:12 PM
I have heard explanations concerning both dinosaurs and fossils as satan's temptation; a way to try to get people to disbelieve God.

Of course, if I was a creationist I'd say dinosaurs were high demons destroyed by gods/angels/saints/whatever. They look sort of like dragons, afterall.
Thanks Deidre, I had no idea that some of them believed this to be the explanation for dinosaur fossils.

I'm just amazed sometimes by how drastically different societies can exist within the same country's here in this modern world. I always remember having a few dinosaur books as a kid, being amazed by them and wanting to be a paleontologist. I even remember we had to sing a song about dinosaurs in first grade lol, it wasn't anything to worry about, we just knew dinosaurs had once existed and we all loved them. Little did I know that in some religious community somewhere they were being taught that dinosaurs were satan's temptation or something!

[Palmer of the Turks]

Originally posted by Lone Wolf@Jul 24 2005, 08:09 AM
Just read "The last continent" by Terry Pratchett (a Discworld novel) and there's the god of evolution and... just read it, it's great 8)
Would you like a meat pie floater?

[Deidre]

Originally posted by Lone_Raider@Jul 28 2005, 10:02 PM
Thanks Deidre, I had no idea that some of them believed this to be the explanation for dinosaur fossils.
Not all of them do, of course. :)

My friend with the Creationist lab partners told me one of her lab partners gets all her answers from: http://answersingenesis.org/

[Captain America]

Wow, good thread...
Lotta good input...

Me, personally, I believe that a higher being (which some call "Jehovah", "Allah" and even "God"...) DID create this universe....
...so how does one create a universe ???
Probably with a big bang!

As for the whole "dinosaur in the bible" thing, or "dinosaur in 'creationism'" thing, I look at it this way.....
...if you live In America, you don't write about penguins....and if you live in Europe, you don't write about squirrels....
i.e.- if you write about the events happening around you, you don't include issues that don't concern you..

As for "Scientific testing", consider how new this testing is in the whole scheme of things....

Bottom line, I don't believe we'll ever know exactly how this world was created just as we won't know how the first civilisation was created...

but if we don't act fast, we just might lose both....

[Lone Wolf]

Originally posted by Captain America@Jul 31 2005, 09:46 AM
and if you live in Europe, you don't write about squirrels....
What are you insinuating, dude?

We have lots of squirrels here and they're better, smarter and furrier than your american squirrels!


:snooty:






:laugh:

[Barefoot Matt]

I thought it was a bit odd that there were no squirrels in europe...

[lemmi]

eh? course there are bleedin' squirrels in europe!

Why don't i just say some rubbish now!

They don't write about people in Japan cos they don't have them over there!

[Fun Lovin' Criminal]

Originally posted by Captain America@Jul 31 2005, 03:46 PM
Wow, good thread...
Lotta good input...

Me, personally, I believe that a higher being (which some call "Jehovah", "Allah" and even "God"...) DID create this universe....
...so how does one create a universe ???
Probably with a big bang!

As for the whole "dinosaur in the bible" thing, or "dinosaur in 'creationism'" thing, I look at it this way.....
...if you live In America, you don't write about penguins....and if you live in Europe, you don't write about squirrels....
i.e.- if you write about the events happening around you, you don't include issues that don't concern you..

As for "Scientific testing", consider how new this testing is in the whole scheme of things....

Bottom line, I don't believe we'll ever know exactly how this world was created just as we won't know how the first civilisation was created...

but if we don't act fast, we just might lose both....
Captain America strikes again!

:roll:

[Lone_Raider]

Originally posted by Captain America@Jul 31 2005, 02:46 AM
As for the whole "dinosaur in the bible" thing, or "dinosaur in 'creationism'" thing, I look at it this way.....
...if you live In America, you don't write about penguins....and if you live in Europe, you don't write about squirrels....
i.e.- if you write about the events happening around you, you don't include issues that don't concern you..

What? :eh:

[Deidre]

Originally posted by Lone Wolf@Jul 31 2005, 10:39 AM
We have lots of squirrels here and they're better, smarter and furrier than your american squirrels!
:lol:

[Lone_Raider]

Originally posted by Lone Wolf@Jul 31 2005, 03:39 AM
We have lots of squirrels here and they're better, smarter and furrier than your american squirrels!
Yeah and your damn grey European squirrels have all but wiped out our native North American red squirrels! Damn colonizing, imperialist, european squirrels! :laugh:

[ittakessome]

i dunno.....i'm american and i write about penguins a lot.

[Nurseman]

I am probably the most devoutly religious person here (which ain't saying much :shifty: ) I tend to place more of my faith in the New rather than the Old Testament. For me The old is more of a metaphor rather than a fact. I see the Old Testament as a collection of stories that are intended to give purpose and direction to people of faith. I have no problem thinking that (during the 40 years of wandering) the Hebrew people asked Moses,"How did we get here?". Moses didn't want to just say,"Hell, I dunno." So he came up with a story that a primitive uneducated people could understand.


Unfortunately, there are people, today, who cannot grasp the concept that parts of the Bible are historical fact (Jesus, Ceasar, Paul, David, Pontius Pilate, these are all real people. Confirmed by other historical records) while other parts, while confiring a meaning or a purpose, are works of fiction. I once mentioned in a Penticostal Sunday school class that the Bible was put together by a committee formed by the early Catholic church. (Did you know that there is a Gospel according to Thomas, but it was left out?) I thought they were going to burn me as a witch.

Many religious people have this all-or-nothing attitude. They feel that if Genesis is not true than Matthew isn't either.


SO, how did all the Bible end up claiming that the world was created in 7 days? I think it was much in the same way that this thread ended up being about squirrels.


:think:



Oh, one other thing. Many creationists believe that the dinosaurs (literally) missed the boat when Noah built the Ark.

[Deidre]

Originally posted by Nurseman+Jul 31 2005, 06:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nurseman @ Jul 31 2005, 06:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Unfortunately, there are people, today, who cannot grasp the concept that parts of the Bible are historical fact (Jesus, Ceasar, Paul, David, Pontius Pilate, these are all real people. Confirmed by other historical records)[/b]
On an added note: plenty of the Old Testament is historical "fact" as well (since you seem to focus on the New Testament here). But, like the people you mention here, it's quite debatable whether it really happened the way the Bible tells it (e.g. we have Mesopotamian records of wars fought with Jews, where the Bible says the Jews won, whereas the Mesopotamian record says their king won). Pontius Pilatus, for example, from Roman sources, was nothing like the fine gentleman of the Bible. He existed, yes, but he's more likely than anything else given a positive light to put ill favour towards the Jews... it's no better (and sometimes, no worse) a historical source than anything else.

<!--QuoteBegin-Nurseman@Jul 31 2005, 06:43 PM
Oh, one other thing. Many creationists believe that the dinosaurs (literally) missed the boat when Noah built the Ark.[/quote]
The part where that really makes no sense at all is the part where I try to figure out what happened to all the amphibious/aquatic dinosaurs.

[Sydney123456]

Originally posted by Nurseman@Jul 31 2005, 10:43 AM
I am probably the most devoutly religious person here (which ain't saying much :shifty: ) I tend to place more of my faith in the New rather than the Old Testament. For me The old is more of a metaphor rather than a fact. I see the Old Testament as a collection of stories that are intended to give purpose and direction to people of faith. I have no problem thinking that (during the 40 years of wandering) the Hebrew people asked Moses,"How did we get here?". Moses didn't want to just say,"Hell, I dunno." So he came up with a story that a primitive uneducated people could understand.


Unfortunately, there are people, today, who cannot grasp the concept that parts of the Bible are historical fact (Jesus, Ceasar, Paul, David, Pontius Pilate, these are all real people. Confirmed by other historical records) while other parts, while confiring a meaning or a purpose, are works of fiction. I once mentioned in a Penticostal Sunday school class that the Bible was put together by a committee formed by the early Catholic church. (Did you know that there is a Gospel according to Thomas, but it was left out?) I thought they were going to burn me as a witch.

Many religious people have this all-or-nothing attitude. They feel that if Genesis is not true than Matthew isn't either.


SO, how did all the Bible end up claiming that the world was created in 7 days? I think it was much in the same way that this thread ended up being about squirrels.


:think:



Oh, one other thing. Many creationists believe that the dinosaurs (literally) missed the boat when Noah built the Ark.
Oh wow...you just put my thoughts in your own words. Thank you, my good sir, thank you.

[Bath of Glitter]

Originally posted by Captain America@Jul 31 2005, 07:46 AM
As for the whole "dinosaur in the bible" thing, or "dinosaur in 'creationism'" thing, I look at it this way.....
...if you live In America, you don't write about penguins....and if you live in Europe, you don't write about squirrels....
i.e.- if you write about the events happening around you, you don't include issues that don't concern you..
Noah took every animal on the ark, so that would include the elusive penguin and squirrel.
And if you believe your analogy is correct, you must be quite the vacant individual.

[MuthaFranka]

Originally posted by Bath of Glitter@Aug 3 2005, 04:20 AM
Noah took every animal on the ark, so that would include the elusive penguin and squirrel.
And if you believe your analogy is correct, you must be quite the vacant individual.
Don't mind him, he's incoherent.

[huh]

Looks like President Bush had a few remarks (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201686.html) about creation...specifically about ID (Intelligent Design (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_Design)) being taught in school.

It's truly sad, instead of trying to teach the students, they want to just say, "Well, that's too complicated for my brain to comprehend so were just going to say that there must have been some sort of "designer" involved!"

[viper34j]

I am a creationist that believes in micro-evolution. Micro Evolution meaning that species can make small changes over a vast period of time. Not the kind of evolution that takes a water based organism and eventually turns it into a human.

So I guess I'm an inbet"weiner".

[Bath of Glitter]

Originally posted by viper34j@Aug 5 2005, 01:06 AM
Not the kind of evolution that takes a water based organism and eventually turns it into a human.
Pretend you were being facetious. That'll get you out of such a nonsense statement.

[Lone_Raider]

Originally posted by huh@Aug 4 2005, 06:25 PM
Looks like President Bush had a few remarks (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201686.html) about creation...specifically about ID (Intelligent Design (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_Design)) being taught in school.

It's truly sad, instead of trying to teach the students, they want to just say, "Well, that's too complicated for my brain to comprehend so were just going to say that there must have been some sort of "designer" involved!"
Fortunatley even right wing crazies like Rick Santorum, dissaproved of Bush's remarks and stated that creationism has no real scientific proof and should not be taught with evolution. I was shocked by that statement coming from him, I thought he'd be right on the creationism bandwagon.

Either way its a victory for leftists. He's split from Bush, and the christian right is going to hate him and not vote for him in 2008. That goes along with Frist approving of stem cell research and pissing off the christian right.

Ahhh, I love it, divide and conquer, I hope the right splits into 2 or 3 factions and self destructs. Meanwhile a 3rd truly leftist party can form and take advantage of the multi faction environment and either they or the dems will win all.

Don't fret poor christians and repubs, leftists only want a more economically fair, just and equal world where everyone truly does have an equal chance. You won't hate us once we get in power and start helping everyone ;)

[Deidre]

Originally posted by Lone_Raider@Aug 5 2005, 07:53 AM
Don't fret poor christians and repubs, leftists only want a more economically fair, just and equal world where everyone truly does have an equal chance. You won't hate us once we get in power and start helping everyone ;)
To bring this back on topic.... :naughty:

How can you be a leftist and still be an evolutionist? There's nothing 'survival of the fittest' about leftist economic policy. ;)

Well, unless you figure that if leftist actually manage to get into power and STAY there, they survived and they were the fittest.

[Fun Lovin' Criminal]

Just because your personal philosophy is one of treat everyone equally and fairly, doesn't mean it's illogical for nature to follow a different practise.

[Lone_Raider]

Originally posted by Fun Lovin' Criminal@Aug 5 2005, 04:47 AM
Just because your personal philosophy is one of treat everyone equally and fairly, doesn't mean it's illogical for nature to follow a different practise.
Exactly, and evolution doesn't neccesarily mean survival of the fittest. Sometimes an animal that has a better design to it dies off, while another one which has poorer biological traits survives simply because it is more adapted to whatever the current conditions are.

And you are also referring to Social Darwinism Deidre, and something I despise. A philosophy which was developed by rich fat cats in the late 19th century who were trying to say that the poor were poor because they were biologically weak and couldn't cut it in the world. However, many of these millionares were morons, drunks, or physically weak and had simply inherited money, and were trying to come up with excuses not to help the poor. Hardly superior biological life forms :roll: I don't group together the biological survival of the human species, with the man made economic situation of the world, economics has nothing to do with evolution.

[Lone Wolf]

Originally posted by Lone_Raider@Aug 5 2005, 09:26 PM
Exactly, and evolution doesn't neccesarily mean survival of the fittest. Sometimes an animal that has a better design to it dies off, while another one which has poorer biological traits survives simply because it is more adapted to whatever the current conditions are.
Err... not to be a smartass, but survival of the fittest means that the one which is best adapted to the current conditions (wheter by general adaptability or sheer luck - e.g. sickle cell anemia and malaria) lives longer and has more probability to have viable offspring.

To complicate things there's a ton of other living (or not-so-living) beings which have an effect on every other being. A very successful species can grow in such numbers that it suddendly destabilizes its habitat in a catastrophic way and dies out. Very small biotopes are often good examples of what happens when one species outgrows everything else without any regulation.

[MuthaFranka]

Um...uh...fuck religion.


Sorry, didn't want to disappoint anybody.

[Deidre]

Originally posted by Lone Wolf@Aug 5 2005, 10:14 PM
Err... not to be a smartass, but survival of the fittest means that the one which is best adapted to the current conditions (wheter by general adaptability or sheer luck - e.g. sickle cell anemia and malaria) lives longer and has more probability to have viable offspring.
Ay. I don't quite get what Lone Raider is trying to say there either. Maybe he can explain?

[Lone_Raider]

Well, yes Lone Wolf is right and I did say that in my post as well. What I was trying to get it with the first half of my post is that "some" people (Social Darwinists, Nazi's) believe that its always the creature with the best physical design that survives, and that they as millionares or the ruling class are some type of perfect human superior to the rest of their species. When really, it is only the creature most adapted to the conditions that survives (or just flat out lucky), even though it may not be physically superior to the competitor, it is just better at surviving in those conditions.

Now, again I reiterate my second statement, that the economic capitalist situation we live in is an artificial creation of man. It has nothing to do with our evolution as a species, all of us humans are the biological winners simply because we all still exist. The world economic situation has nothing to do with evolution, we created it, we participate in it, and we chose to exploit others or be exploited. The poor are not always stupid or lazy or weak on the evolutionary scale, one needs only to look at working class American radicals of the late 19th and early 20th century some of which had superior knowledge, oratory skills and physical strength (Eugene V Debs, Big Bill Haywood and more) to their wealthy masters. Certainly had this been a tribal situation, Big Bill Haywood would have easily killed or beaten Andrew Carnegie or John D. Rockefellar, however the world wasn't and isn't like that anymore. The war was between capital and labor, a situation developed by man, not by nature.

Therefore I can be both an evolutionist, believing that men evolved over time into the current human race, and a leftist believing that the man made and artificial economic situation is unfair and unjust and needs to be corrected.