The Man's Choice - Abortion

[kuju]

After readin the abortion thread a few times, I was thinking about the man's choice and decisions over the abortion, and I find that my opinion actually is the opposite of my philosophy. it's very confusing.


Yes. it's her body. But they BOTH had (let's assume, consunsual) sex. Should he not have some say in what happens to his child? it's a part of HIM as well. this is my philosophy.

My opinion is that while he can have his input, the decision is hers alone, because it it her body. Even if she were to give the baby to him, she would have to carry it for nine months.

My second point. My philosophy: if only she wants the baby, she has to support it and not get support from him. if only he wants the baby, he should have to support the baby, and not get it from her.

My opinion: if she wants the baby, she is entitled to support from him. he is entitled to visitation rights. if only he wants the baby, he has custody, she doesn't pay support, but she has visitation rights.


I KNOW that my opinions are... wrong. but are they? I'm really conflicted over this! It's equality... but... Not.

what are you opinions on these two points?

[Mooch]

it doesn't sound much like equality to me :-?

although I agree with your philosophy.

[BigJim]

isn't it incredible that a girl can "accidently" forget to take the pill and not tell her partner, get pregnant while he didn't want it to happen, have the baby that he didn't want and then DEMAND and RECEIVE child support from him??

that's just fucked.

i agree with kuju on this one. if she wants it and he didn't and it was specifically discussed beforehand, she shouldn't expect support from him if she went behind his back to get it.

HOWEVER (i know this is contradictory) if you're in a relationship and an accident happened and she got pregnant (not deliberate mistake), then i'd look rather sadly at a guy that took off without supporting the child.

you think that it's weird, my views?

[Brass Monkey]

Shit....I knew when I posted in the abortion thread it was going to start something. :roll:

[qtpa2t]

abortion is just a mess having kids before you're ready or married is a mess! I'm all about prevention but totally against abortion. Tough issue! This is too overwhelming...... I don't wanna talk about it anymore!

[Pudding]

isn't it incredible that a girl can "accidently" forget to take the pill and not tell her partner, get pregnant while he didn't want it to happen, have the baby that he didn't want and then DEMAND and RECEIVE child support from him??




upon reading that, yeah i agree with kuju on what shes sed.

[Shocka]

Big Jim and Kuju are both right in their thinking, and I think it's a shame that the Western Legal System doesn't agree. But still, right in mind, right in life.

[surfy_dude]

well kuju, i totally agree with your opinions
and think that in particular its very wrong for a girl to make the decision on her own. yes it is her body, but it is part of both male and female. plus the decision to have sex was made by both of the people

[SoSweetAngel]

Ideally, man and woman have sex, woman falls pregnant, man and woman have sensible, calm conversation about abortion, where both views are give equal consideration until a mutual decision is reached.

But do we live in an ideal world...noooo!

It's very confusing, because I think that the man should have some choice - it's his baby too! But at the same time...it's the mother who will have to carry the baby for 9 months and traditionally the one who will have to care for it.

Confusing!!

[Asphodelle13]

isn't it incredible that a girl can "accidently" forget to take the pill and not tell her partner, get pregnant while he didn't want it to happen, have the baby that he didn't want and then DEMAND and RECEIVE child support from him??

that's just fucked.


Yeah I agree, that is pretty fucked up. :-x

[hunny]

isn't it incredible that a girl can "accidently" forget to take the pill and not tell her partner, get pregnant while he didn't want it to happen, have the baby that he didn't want and then DEMAND and RECEIVE child support from him??

that's just fucked


Sorry but I have to disagree with you here.
I think that both people should be aware of the risks involved having sex. If you don't want to be a father, then you probably shouldn't leave the birth control totally up to the girl. Take some responsibility for it yourself, then, and use a condom in addition to the pill. That way, you are also protecting yourself from being an unexpected father.
"Didn't want it to happen?" Be aware that it does sometimes happen, regardless of whether you want it to or not. That is the risk you are taking when you even have sex. Know that, and know that if you father a child, whether you intended to or not, that you are responsible for it.
I don't know about where you live but the laws here say that you must pay child support til the kid is 18.
Why is that 'just fucked?' Have you forgotten that this is a PERSON we are talking about, and once he or she is here, the reality is, the TWO people who created him/her, accidentally or otherwise, are now responsible for making sure he has some quality of life. And that's as it should be, I think.
It's too difficult for the law to determine whether or not a guy was 'tricked' into fatherhood, or whether it was an honest accident or mistake. That's an impossible situation. So the right thing is to have things set up to protect and care for the child who was conceived, through no fault of his own.
You know, BJ, I find your views on this subject somewhat contradictory. On the one hand, you are against abortion. Fine. But you are also against paying child support if the father didn't 'intend' to get the woman pregnant in the first place.

[kuju]

See? I can't decide EITHER WAY, and so, it seems, neither can any of you.

But hunny has a point Nate, why should birth control be solely the responsibility of the girl? there's hormonal contraception for men now (though honestly, no guy would ever go on that shit) and there's condoms...

but then again, it;s so much easier for the girl to take the responsibility. The pill is rather convenient... and condoms tend not to be after a while. Like someone here once said (and I agree) once you've had sex without a condom, you'll never want to go back. and it's true, although you're a bloddy idiot if you put that into practice.

[LeoDaVinci]

We are in the age of equality, but yet there is unfair discrimination when it comes down to the bottom line. We sympathize with the woman because she has to have the baby, and we brand the man "irresponsible" and "unworthy" because he got her pregnant. The fault was THEIRS, as a couple. Nobody has consensual sex without thinking of the concequences, because then you are really unworthy to become a parent.

OK so this unexpected baby comes along. Its the woman's body, so she has the final say if she wants the baby or not, but the input of the man is not to be lightly cast aside. If she decides to have the baby, and the guy doesn't want it he is still responsible for it! If the girl doesn't want it she is also responsible for it (she shouldn't have had it in the first place). Its a thing they have to face as a couple, even if they are not together any more.

-- LDV :cool3:

[nicruns]

I agree with hunny. We all know that sex involves risk and by having sex you submit to that risk accident or no accident.

[goofball]

first, for this reason guys, if you don't use a condom you are an idiot. also, flush the condom down the toilet because women have been known to fish out the condom and shove it up them and then nail you for child support.

second
women want to be considered equal to men under the law. so

i think, we should figure out the cost of raising a baby, as a function of what city you live in. divide it 2, spread it out over (18*12) months, and the is child support. It's a fixed amount, and if a partner doesn't want to be involved in the raising of a child they pay this amount. Shouldn't matter it they're male or female, and it shouldnt' matter it they make a lot of money or not. (although for cases where the 'deadbeat' makes no money, we may make an exception)

abortion:
it is the womans body, but the baby is half the mans. So in an ideal world, the desicino would be like 60% woman 40 % man. However, it has to be all or nothing. So, if both parties want the baby, great, if the woman deoesn't want it and the man does, she can either have an abortion or give him the baby, and if the woman wants it and the man doesn't she can have it, but she should not be entitled to child support.

child support should be for the case of a couple that has a kid and then splits up.

[geekboy]

1. I don't like the approach of seeing a unborn child as some kind of property that belongs to both parents. A born child is a independent human, but since it's not able to make decision for for itself, both parents do this.

Now, do we also give this status to the unborn child? If so, then I have problems with justifying abortion at all. If not, if we see the child as some kind of lifeless lump of cells, then it's only the womans decision, what grows in her body. If the man claims the fetus is also his property, he can have it, in a bag.

2. Since pregnancy is the risk of having sex, both partners should share the risk and the resulting burden. If the parents separate the one with the child gets support from the other one, who has of course visitation rights.

[BigJim]

okay, birth control side of things: i made the comment that this was after things had been dicussed between them. so i took the point that birth control had been discussed and from those discussions it was mutually agreed that the woman would take the pill.

so am i to assume that if you get married that the guy should still wear a condom as well as the girl on birth control??

i referred to it as being fucked in that a girl can maliciously do something like that, perhaps out of hate, spite, anger or jealousy or a lot more emotions, and then penalise the guy that was totally in the dark about it all.

here was a couple that had had several serious and in depth conversations about their sex life and path to take, and then the girl goes and breaks everything up for HER own selfish thoughts. i was referring it to the guy being fully 'tricked' as you called it into fatherhood.

that's why i called it fucked. i would have no trouble supporting the baby at all. just IMHO the girl having that legal power to screw the guy totally is ridiculous.

[hunny]

Well the scenerio you're describing is fucked up all the way around. You're talking in extremes here. Some mutually agreed on 'plan' to NOT have children, and then the woman 'secretly and spitefully' gets pregnant in order to screw the guy out of child support for 18 years. Yeah... sure.
I suppose IF that were to happen, then tough shit, right? Hey, life is often unfair. Again, I say that you should always be aware that pregnancy is a risk of having sex, even if birthcontrol is used.
Also, I said this before, but after the child is born, it's not really 'about' being fair to the mother or fair to the father. It becomes What IS Best For The Child. Yeah in some cases it might be unfair to make someone pay support. But the courts have to operate with the best interest of the child in mind. And that is the basis for all child support cases that arise.

[geekboy]

just IMHO the girl having that legal power to screw the guy totally is ridiculous.

Hmm, who is the screwed one, a single parenting mother or a guy who has to pay support? I don't think it's that great to be a single parenting mother, so your scenario not very likely. And if you acn't trust the woman, you shouldn't have sex with her.

[BigJim]

so your scenario not very likely
it is very very likely. i'll explain.

You're talking in extremes here

i don't know about you guys in america, but here in australia it does happen, a lot more than you may think. we spent an entire quarter in school discussing this topic, and the statistics are suprising.

read the newspaper. not just the front few pages and the sports, but get in towards the middle and you get the real graphic articles.

i have a good friend that works for our government social security. she sees on average about 10-15 girls PER DAY that are in that exact same senario as i spelled out. so don't tell me it's extreme or not likely.

IT HAPPENS! if you pulled your head out of your sheltered mind-set and see the world in reality, you'll know what i'm talking about! sorry if i offend, but it really gets me when people don't take the time to find out what ACTUALLY happens in the world.

[hunny]

Not offended, and I DO keep up on what's happening in the world.
It's just that 'statistics of girls who deliberately trick their poor bf into fathering children' doesn't seem to make a lot of the papers here, front, back OR center.
I never said it couldnt happen. I still stand by the opinion that its NOT the norm, therefore its an extreme.
And again, like i've stated, after there is a child on the way, then it doesn't much matter as far as the courts are concerned, whether everything is all fair and equal for the father. Once that child is here then whether he got here on purpose, by accident, or by fucking parachute, then it's up to both parents, tricked or not, to take care of him. And that includes financial responsibility til he's old enough to fend for himself.
Fair? Maybe not. But that, my friend, IS reality, in this country anyway.

[BigJim]

I still stand by the opinion that its NOT the norm, therefore its an extreme.
oral and anal sex are not the norm, so i guess they're extreme's in sex too. people being totally honest with their partner is not the norm, so i guess that's extreme. guys being happy to use a condom is not the norm, so once again that's the extreme.

so, your opinion is that if ANYTHING is not the norm, then it's extreme?? wow. i'm really fucking extreme then!! i think everyone on this forum could be categorised as extreme in someway by your logic.

[hunny]

Don't put words in my mouth. And you are reeeeeaally straying off topic here. Your examples have absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, so I'm not going to argue semantics with you. That's pointless.
I"ll agree with you one thing. You are a little fucking extreme, BJ.

[BigJim]

not willing to continue??

how about another situation then?

a guy and a gal get together, get pregnant, but he takes full custody of the child because she doesnt want one -- why on earth SHOULDNT SHE pay child support?

most of the time the guy has no legal footing on this case. but the other way around the guy HAS TO.

[hunny]

I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not positive about this, but I do know some women who do not have custody, and who pay child support. I would have no problem with that at all. Like I said, whatever is for the good of the child...

[Barefoot Matt]

I support BigJim on this issue.

[Shocka]

Eck. We've gotten into a brawl quickly.

I just want to point out that what Goofball said about the girl fishing the condom out of the toilet to get the semen out and force it up themselves is illogical and immature, and blatantly stupid. What SirBigJim said was less-so, but they both make it sound like women are all out desperately trying to have babies, or desperately trying to screw over their male partners using money and babies as the weapon of choice. Not going to happen, people!

SirBigJim, I've heard of things like this, but it's equally unlikely as it is ridiculous. Think of the pain and trouble to go through to have a baby, just by spite. Not happening. I've only heard of this from an anti-feminist viewpoint, never any actual cases of it. Pull up some statistics and show me, then we'll dance.

Now, I want to come to something completely different. I'm interested in how many females out there like babies, and actually want one, and when. I'm going to post a Poll outside of this.

[hunny]

not willing to continue??




NOT that I was unwilling to continue, but I think my point has been made here. No use belaboring it or saying it over and over again.
I can understand you thinking that this would be an unfair situation for the man to be in. But one thing you keep ignoring, and have not even acknowledged once, is the fact the baby, once here, should come first. And that it doesn't matter about the circumstances of his conception, once he's here all that is beside the point. And luckily, the court system in this country tries to put the needs of that baby ahead of any thing the parents may have done.
THAT is my point.

[LeoDaVinci]

The point is, while the parents are having their legal battle about money, the custodial issue tends to be forgotten. Who is entitled to the child if both parents want the child, but do not want to be together. Usually, the mother gets it because of the unfair prejeduce that she carried the baby, hence she is entitled to the child. Unfair. The system is blatantly biased to favour the mother, in any aspect of the issue.

What is unnoticed is that the child's best interests are often forgotten, since only the parents can hire lawyers. We have to make sure that the child gets what's best for it.

-- LDV :cool3:

[goofball]

I just want to point out that what Goofball said about the girl fishing the condom out of the toilet to get the semen out and force it up themselves is illogical and immature, and blatantly stupid.


stupid for me to say? or stupid for girls to do.

it's just a fact, this happens. What i said was not based on logic, maturity, or inteeligence. I was just stating fact.

[kuju]

I'm pretty sure he meant stupid for the girl to do, goofball.

[BigJim]

And that it doesn't matter about the circumstances of his conception, once he's here all that is beside the point.
but what if it's a girl? :mrgreen:

http://rf.thedesigneng.com/phpBB2/viewtopi...?t=666&start=20 (http://rf.thedesigneng.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=666&start=20)

Jim was right suckas.

[hunny]

http://rf.thedesigneng.com/phpBB2/viewtopi...?t=666&start=20 (http://rf.thedesigneng.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=666&start=20)

Jim was right suckas.


Sigh.... You, starfish, and others of your "ilk" are still not getting the point. Jim's complaint and point were that men should not have to pay child support if they were supposedly tricked into fatherhood. That's bullshit. No one said it could never happen or would never happen. What I was saying was that once the child is here, it doesn't matter how he or she was conceived. You made it, accidentally or other wise, you pay for it. And no offense to anyone, but Peaches 18, who posted that comment that you linked to, doesn't exactly sound like she's playing with a full deck. She also made a post stating that the best birth control was food, bc then you would be too fat to be on top or something.
Quite simply, it comes down to this: IF you have sex, be aware that you could end up fathering a child no matter how much you do NOT want one.And if that happens, you and the baby's mother are responsible for that child til he or she is 18 years or older. Those are the facts. Deal with them. Or keep it in your pants.
Period. The end.

[Brass Monkey]

And no offense to anyone, but Peaches 18, who posted that comment that you linked to, doesn't exactly sound like she's playing with a full deck.

Umm...that is also the point. There are some women out there that are so fucking psycho that they would do that type of shit to get themselves pregnant. There are a lot of women out there that want children so badly it is scary. Women that are willing to do almost anything to get a child do some really insane things. There are women that will even go as far as kidnapping infants and raising them as their own.

So thinking about the really crazy shit that has happened by women really wanting children....
Is it really so unbeliveable that a girl will stop taking her birth control so she can get pregnant????

[hunny]

Sigh..
Why do you guys seem so stuck on pointing out that there are some women who might do that? I never said it wasn't possible. THAT was NEVER the point. THE POINT was, you make a baby, you pay for it.
And I gotta say,Brass Monkey, that even the most psycho, insane-0 woman in the world,cannot "get herself pregnant," which is a phrase you used in your post.
If you finding yourself having sex with a complete psychopath, such as some of the ones you're describing, then either stop, use a condom,or prepare for fatherhood and child support.

It's not just "one in a million," otherwise, why would we be discussing it? It happens very often, far more often than most upper class people might think...

To many, kids can mean MONEY... Also some women are just obsessed in having children. And OBVIOUSLY the women who would do such evils are NOT the norm. THAT is the argument. They are the exception that occures that Jim was pointing out as a hazard.

The argument was that MALICIOUS and DECEITFUL acts to cause pregnancy are ENTIRELY seperate from "oops it broke" and "darn she got pregnant." These are cases where women would fish out the used condoms.

And I certainly hope you aren't saying everyone can just tell if they are dating a girl who wants a baby more than life itself... Because if that's a claim, such a thing would NEVER happen since us guys would all be able to avoid it. Quite the contrary, this could be a girl you dated for two years, love dearly, and trust with your life... except she shoves the used condoms in herself after you go home.

The point was NOT denying that normal accidental pregnancies don't merit cash from the parents. THAT I can agree with. TOTALLY SEPERATE ISSUE.

[skittleknows]

My opinion is that while he can have his input, the decision is hers alone, because it it her body. Even if she were to give the baby to him, she would have to carry it for nine months.

if only he wants the baby, he has custody, she doesn't pay support, but she has visitation rights.

I KNOW that my opinions are... wrong. but are they? I'm really conflicted over this! It's equality... but... Not.

I don't get how these two parts can both be true (first two), but i agree with you mostly. BTW your opinions AREN'T WRONG. THats why they are OPINIONS; there is no right or wrong! :wink: